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Old 03-30-2008, 03:09 PM   #101
Dale Kimberlin
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Re: Children's vaccinations

With all the other confounding lifestyle differences, blaming it on lack of vaccines seems to be wishful thinking on the anti vaccine crowd. It could be any one of hundreds of differences.

I completely underestand your reasoning. However this is not the only anecdote or evidence to this matter. I would like to know what some of the other 100 or so lifestyle differences that are in play with respect to the Amish. Is it flouridated water, high sugar diets, hours upon hours of television? We as a society don't make it easy to narrow down possible culprits do we? Could the neurotoxin not be as bad as the human DNA (aborted fetal cells) which the body mounts an immune response to be more likely the Autism mechanism? We have thousands of parents who have anecdotal evidence as to what happened after a routine vaccination visit.

See what Dr Mercola said about the amish post from his site below.

Dr. Mercola's Comments:

Does anyone out there really need more evidence than this?

Admittedly, this was not a placebo-controlled scientific trial but an evidence-based fact analysis that, in my mind, provides an irrefutable link to a lifestyle and, most likely, mercury-containing vaccine connection to autism.

Folks, you don't have to be a medical doctor, hold advanced epidemiology degrees or teach molecular genetics to figure this one out. You don't even need a degree in rocket science. How much more obvious could it be?

The link between autism and vaccines is certainly not a new idea. In fact, suggestions of this link have been in the national news for at least six years now. Just last year a study, that reviewed data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) Vaccine Data Link, concluded that children who receive thimerosal-containing vaccinations are 27 times more likely to develop autism than children who do not.

That's a 2,700 percent increase. The numbers just don't lie.



"Autism rates have not decreased since the removal of thimerosal"

I am not so sure that kids are getting thimerisol free vaccine (unenforced and parents uninformed of the thimerisol ingredient)



"It is know known that many, perhaps most cases of otitis media will resolve without antibiotics, even those with a bacterial etiology".



It is now known about Antibiotics even though JAMA for many years said the opposite. Could it be that the Medical profession could also be wrong about Vaccine? And is it wise to continue to Mandate Vaccine when so many questions go unanswered?



If a parent chooses to do so great. A parent should have the rights (Thankfully those rights are still in place, for now) to choose to forgo the vaccines.

Heard immunity might not seem fair to the vaccinated but neither is exposing the unvaccinated to live mutated proteins called vaccine.

Besides, The vaccinated are the "protected ones" so they really have nothing to worry about.


Finally, I too appreciate the ethical discussion of this highly charged bipartisan topic.

All I ask is for people to inform themselves and make a decision that is right for them and to not mandate a medical procedure for me and my own. Home of the free, remember.
 
Old 03-30-2008, 03:20 PM   #102
Scott Mahn
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Shirley View Post

And as sad as the anecdotal evidence is, it is just that, and contributes little to the discussion at hand. If the causal link was as strong as people claim, it should be easy to produce definitive proof of a causal link.
Andy, correct me if I'm wrong, but DISproving a causal link here is as difficult as proving one because long-term double-blind studies with controls have not been conducted.

It reminds me of the growth hormone and milk situation where scientists told the FDA equipment could be produced and tests made which could distinguish between synthetic hormones vs natural ones in milk, but the FDA chose not to require development of such tests and they are thus able to say there is no detectable difference.

But without either of us trying to prove anything to one another, what does your intuition tell you? Is it so inconceivable that as vaccine schedules get more intense that, in conjunction with other environmental toxins and stressors, a child's immune system can be overloaded, and the result of that overload could show up in any number of ways depending on the individual. Some might develop neurological problems, other auto-immunity issues, and others SIDS. Is that really so inconceivable? In the face of so many stressors it's hard to point the finger ant any one, but it's not at all hard for me to imagine that on many occasions a vaccination is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Let us not forget, something is at work in these escalating rates of SIDS, autism, asthma, etc. I'm not sure that anything has been proven irrefutably causal yet, but that doesn't mean nothing is at cause.
 
Old 03-30-2008, 03:57 PM   #103
Andy Shirley
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Admittedly, this was not a placebo-controlled scientific trial but an evidence-based fact analysis that, in my mind, provides an irrefutable link to a lifestyle and, most likely, mercury-containing vaccine connection to autism.
Complete non-sequiter.

Quote:
"Autism rates have not decreased since the removal of thimerosal"

I am not so sure that kids are getting thimerisol free vaccine (unenforced and parents uninformed of the thimerisol ingredient)
The data clearly shows that thimerosal is not linked. In places where it was removed from vaccines there has been no change in rates of autism, and in some places an increase(Netherlands).

Quote:
But without either of us trying to prove anything to one another, what does your intuition tell you? Is it so inconceivable that as vaccine schedules get more intense that, in conjunction with other environmental toxins and stressors, a child's immune system can be overloaded, and the result of that overload could show up in any number of ways depending on the individual. Some might develop neurological problems, other auto-immunity issues, and others SIDS. Is that really so inconceivable? In the face of so many stressors it's hard to point the finger ant any one, but it's not at all hard for me to imagine that on many occasions a vaccination is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Let us not forget, something is at work in these escalating rates of SIDS, autism, asthma, etc. I'm not sure that anything has been proven irrefutably causal yet, but that doesn't mean nothing is at cause.
I never said there is not "something" causing the increases, just that it has been shown pretty clearly that it is not thimerosal.
 
Old 03-30-2008, 04:10 PM   #104
Scott Mahn
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Re: Children's vaccinations

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Originally Posted by Andy Shirley View Post
I never said there is not "something" causing the increases, just that it has been shown pretty clearly that it is not thimerosal.
Understood. But while thimerosal might have been the most logical of candidates for blame within vaccines it's not the only one.

Last edited by Scott Mahn : 03-30-2008 at 04:13 PM.
 
Old 03-30-2008, 04:17 PM   #105
Andy Shirley
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Re: Children's vaccinations

good study:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...=e/Rjea1.ceqdk
wfs

--as a note MMR never contained thimerosal anyway, and other vaccinations and vaccination status isn't mentioned in the study.

another good read, wfs:
Thimerosal and Vaccines — A Cautionary Tale: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/13/1278

Last edited by Andy Shirley : 03-30-2008 at 04:31 PM.
 
Old 03-30-2008, 04:47 PM   #106
David Wood
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Folks, dozens of links up there without the "work and family safe (or not)" designation (thank, Andy, for supplying it in your posts).

Dale, we require that ALL links (including those that are "safe") be affirmatively designated as such (or not; you can certainly post a "not safe for work or family" link, but you have to designate, either way).

You've chosen to make your first two posts in this rather controversial thread, so we won't apply the usual punishment (deletion of the links). Please do it in the future, and I hope you're here to stay and contribute!
 
Old 03-30-2008, 05:05 PM   #107
Dale Kimberlin
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Sorry!
 
Old 03-30-2008, 05:40 PM   #108
Dale Kimberlin
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Re: Children's vaccination Work/Family friendly

Work and Family friendly link.

Another possible etiology.
It has also been hypothasized By Dr. Joan Fallon that the health of the childs gut may be adversely affected by a combination of factors. (diminished chymotrypsin levels lead to an inability of the NS to develop or toxicity from undigested fat poisoning the body. This can be detected with a fecal chymotrypsin test.

healthcaredc.com/autism2.html

Hope I did this one right
 
Old 03-30-2008, 05:50 PM   #109
Robert Pierce
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Mahn View Post
Let us not forget, something is at work in these escalating rates of SIDS, autism, asthma, etc. I'm not sure that anything has been proven irrefutably causal yet, but that doesn't mean nothing is at cause.
I would like to know where you got the impression that rates of SIDS are escalating? In truth, the rate of SIDS has dropped steadily over the last 20-25 years (wfs): http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00017250.htm and http://www.cdph.ca.gov/data/statisti...-FactSheet.pdf This decline most likely has to do with identification and modification of known risk factors such as maternal smoking and sleep position, among others. Further, the one study that does show any relationship between vaccines and SIDS suggests that vaccination actually decreases the risk (wfs): http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...ez&artid=30557

Now turning to asthma, it is clear that asthma rates have gone up. If you need a theory on the cause, take a look at the hygiene theory of asthma. Studies examining the link between vaccines and asthma have failed to show any associations. This link is a good discussion and summary of the data (wfs): http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/111/3/653

Autism rates may have as much to do with improvements in screening than with an actual increase in cases. Last year the AAP recommended screening all children for autism using a standardized tool (CHAT, M-CHAT) at 18 and 24 months of age. This allows early detection and initiation of proven effective therapies like ABA.

Thank you, Andy, for putting up the NEJM MMR/autism study.
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Old 03-30-2008, 07:44 PM   #110
Scott Mahn
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Re: Children's vaccinations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Shirley View Post
good study:
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/...=e/Rjea1.ceqdk
wfs

--as a note MMR never contained thimerosal anyway, and other vaccinations and vaccination status isn't mentioned in the study.
In interesting study, to e sure. It looked at once malady relative to one vaccine, independent of all others, in a country I suspect has a different vax schedule than this one. So if the question ever was "is the MMR vax, by itself, solely responsible for autism in Denmark?" perhaps the answer would be "no". But it really doesn't assess the risk of following the US vax mandate across a host of maladies, like SIDS, Autism, asthma, etc.

Quote:
another good read, wfs:
Thimerosal and Vaccines — A Cautionary Tale: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/13/1278
I thought the tone of this one was extremely prejudiced, so I wasn't surprised to find out the person who wrote it is a vaccine inventor and on the payroll of one of the largest vaccine producers. Conflicts of interest are rife in medical publishing, not to mention advisory boards.

Dr. Offit reports serving on the scientific advisory board of Merck and being the coinventor of the bovine–human reassortant rotavirus vaccine RotaTeq, on which he holds a patent.


And what was the moral of his cautionary tale? To keep the public as uninformed as possible.
 
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