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Old 06-15-2010, 12:53 PM   #161
Dave Hardy
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Re: Vegan Paleo

On the oats vs spinach debate, I contemplated rowing 18km today on spinach only, then decided on cereal instead.

If a persons diet is 19% grain based that strikes me as a significant amount, and 85% carb is beyond even the dreaded government food pyramid isn't it? I'm slightly puzzled as to why the fact that people can thrive on non-paleo diets should be such a contentious issue.
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:53 PM   #162
Jeffrey White
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
In all these pages of thread, I've lost track of what we're even debating... So, to clarify, my position is that:
* Grains are an important food for all of the modern cultures with the longest lifespans.
* Therefore there is no evidence that grains should be universally avoided.
* And therefore grains are a perfectly acceptable source of calories.

While entertaining, the whole debate about what constitutes a "staple," a "grain-based" diet, or a "grain-rich" diet isn't particularly relevant to my underlying point. I'm certainly not arguing that grains should be anyone's *primary* source of calories, so go ahead and hit that straw man as hard as you'd like.

Katherine
It's certainly not a straw man argument. I think you just keep looking for any reason why grains are important because it's been beat into your head ever since you can remember that whole grains are supposed to be good for you. You've tried making arguments for overall caloric content, nutrition and health benefits (such as longevity) and all I've tried to do is respond.

*I completely disagree with the statement of "Grains are an important food for all of the modern cultures with the longest lifespans" and do not believe WHATSOEVER that you have shown any proof or evidence that this is so. And I would easily counter that modern Hunter-Gatherer tribes have shown that without grains they are able to live long lifespans. Few if any ever die by "western diseases".

*I believe that there is plenty of evidence that there is no good reason to consume grains. They offer no benefits that cannot be obtained from other food sources...whether its nutrients, fat, carbs, fiber or just overall calories. Consuming grains is to me like consuming protein powder, soda, fast food or popcorn. If you like it, you like it and that's that. But don't try to make it more than what it is. Food you enjoy. Not food you need or the best food you can obtain.

*I believe that eating whole grains is right there with long treadmill runs, spin classes and group exercise classes...public perceptions of what is "healthy", but typically results in failure or underachieving.
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:01 PM   #163
Jeffrey White
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Dave Hardy View Post
On the oats vs spinach debate, I contemplated rowing 18km today on spinach only, then decided on cereal instead.

If a persons diet is 19% grain based that strikes me as a significant amount, and 85% carb is beyond even the dreaded government food pyramid isn't it? I'm slightly puzzled as to why the fact that people can thrive on non-paleo diets should be such a contentious issue.
That's 19% OF 80% according to that document.

It works out to about 64g of carbs from grains, with about 41g of carbs from rice and a meager 23g from other grains (wheat, etc).

That is not a large amount. It's like one cup of rice and about 1/3c of oatmeal a day.

They get about 275g from mainly yams, sweet potatoes and other veggies.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:11 PM   #164
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey White View Post
That's 19% OF 80% according to that document.

It works out to about 64g of carbs from grains, with about 41g of carbs from rice and a meager 23g from other grains (wheat, etc).

That is not a large amount. It's like one cup of rice and about 1/3c of oatmeal a day.

They get about 275g from mainly yams, sweet potatoes and other veggies.
You're not looking at the paper I posted. That one lists rice as 12% of *total calories*, wheat and other grains as 9%, and sweet potatoes as 69%. (Table 1, p. 443).

Katherine
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:19 PM   #165
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey White View Post
*I completely disagree with the statement of "Grains are an important food for all of the modern cultures with the longest lifespans" and do not believe WHATSOEVER that you have shown any proof or evidence that this is so. And I would easily counter that modern Hunter-Gatherer tribes have shown that without grains they are able to live long lifespans. Few if any ever die by "western diseases".
*heavy sigh* Believe what you want.

I completely agree that modern hunter-gatherer tribes are able to do just fine without grains. I do not believe and have not claimed that grains are essential. The claim that I have a problem with is that *only* diets with minimal grains are healthy, and that *all* grains should be avoided by *all* people.

Katherine
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:26 PM   #166
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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*I believe that eating whole grains is right there with long treadmill runs, spin classes and group exercise classes...public perceptions of what is "healthy", but typically results in failure or underachieving.
Really? Like Michael Phelps? Or Lance Armstrong? Like large numbers of other top athletes?

Yes, elite athletes are genetic outliers and don't necessarily model good nutrition. But they certainly aren't "failures" or "underachieving," either. If a high-carb diet is so pitifully inadequate, and since elite athletes are looking for every edge they can get, why don't more of them eat Paleo?

Katherine
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:45 PM   #167
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Vegan Paleo

"why don't more of them eat Paleo? "

Training inertia. Thats what everyone else is doing.

I don't think Phelps diet is a bad diet for what Phelps is doing, but NO ONE is going to use Phelps as a guniea pig.
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:33 PM   #168
Dave Hardy
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Re: Vegan Paleo

I don't think Phelps even uses the Phelps diet, at least, the legendary, 12,000-calories-of-ham-sandwiches-and-pasta Phelps diet, which I think he denied ever eating. Although if you want really crazy, look up Vic Richards, a bodybuilder who claimed he ate between 20 and 30,000 calories a day, and reckoned most of it was carbs.
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:44 PM   #169
Kevin Burns
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
since elite athletes are looking for every edge they can get, why don't more of them eat Paleo?
How do you know they don't ?
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Old 06-15-2010, 06:34 PM   #170
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: Vegan Paleo

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Originally Posted by Kevin Burns View Post
How do you know they don't ?

How do you know they do?
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