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Old 11-12-2009, 03:51 AM   #21
Matt Payne
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Everett View Post
One last post, because the issue seems to be getting lost within a few posters' confusion....

Making a similar product that competes with an existing product is completely legit. Of course - that's free market capitalism, and that, at least in theory, is what ultimately drives continuing improvements in product offerings. But the development of such a product should involve some kind of variation and, presumably, improvement - not simple duplication.

It's not a copy of "the sandbag" in some general sense - it's a copy of a very specific and unique design, created by Josh Henkin, of a sandbag and associated filler bags. These are extremely different things, and if you can't understand the distinction, this particular issue is beyond your reach. Objection to this idea is no different to me than saying one can reprint and sell a book because no one owns the rights to "the book" - it's not the book that matters, it's the content. Similarly, it's not "the bag" - it's the unique design of that bag.

York, Eleiko and Werksan bars and bumpers are considerably different from each other, in fact; as are different brands of KBs, etc. The differences between these products are quite clear to the athletes who actually use them; I've never encountered a weightlifter, for example, who couldn't see and feel a difference among barbells, and who didn't have a preference for one over others. These companies make their own products that serve the same need, which means they will have to be similar in many respects; but they don't take their competitors' products to a manufacturer and ask that they be duplicated.

From what I can see, the rogue bags are identical, or close enough, having no legitimate or purposeful deviation from Henkin's design. I would like to think that's not the case, and if it isn't, my apologies to bill/rogue... but the photos here suggest otherwise.

Sent the product to another manufacturer to be duplicated? Is that what factually happened?
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Old 11-12-2009, 06:31 AM   #22
William Henniger
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

Greg:

The reason we went with a different manufacturer had less to do with us having our own sand bag line and more to do with other issues that don't fit our business model.

I have taken every piece of gear we have and attempted to make it in the US with American materials. Our rings for example cost 4-5X what other manufacturers make theirs for yet we keep them at a competitive rate. That being said we keep a stock of them and you get tracking within 24 hours. If there is something that I cannot do this with often we find a new source.

With regards to barbells, take one apart and see exactly what is going on. The Eleiko bar has been cut down and reverse engineered by every bar manufacturer known to man. You will find aspects of that bar in all current weightlifting bars. From the snap rings to the steel mix. It may look a bit different but I assure you the barbell business is one of the most cut throat businesses. This is a business where there are trade secrets and zero patents other than the fat bar.

Your comparison to barbells is incorrect, call the barbell manufacturers you carry and ask them. Your bumper comparison is the same, every manufacturer you have listed comes from China. Again do some research and you may find it interesting where all of their equipment comes from. I agree in the end the barbells end up with their own look and feel which will drive lifters to choose certain brands.

As a reseller do you not get the same inquiries that I get weekly asking me to make kettlebells at the same location as current manufacturers? Once it leaves our shore, there is duplication.

Again, we chose to purchase this product from a different manufacturer due to business reasons that I have outlined to Josh Henkin. We did not gain in margin and we did not raise the price, this was simply to allow us to keep the pipeline full and the level of customer service at the highest level possible.

We have been working on a number of items with regards to the sand bag to include recycled rubber blocks that can be thrown into the bag. This bag and the contents will see a constant evolution just as the everything else in our store does.

Our rings, shoes, website, store, tshirt, climbing ropes, barbells, pullup rig, pullup bracket, squat stand, pullup bar and much more have been duplicated in some sense. In the end they never know what we are going to change with the product or what it took to design it. From this point forward the sand bags we carry will have two very different teams of thought put into them.

Again, if anyone would like to discuss it with me:614.358.6190

Bill
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:52 AM   #23
Josh Henkin
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

Bill,
It still remains that your promotion of military specs is incorrect and misleading. I work with military groups often and I would never say my sandbags are to military specs because two reasons...

1. The military does not make such a product.

2. They never commissioned me to make a product to their specific designs.

These are the two ways that something would be to "military specs". Because you have a veteran working with you is great, however, this does not make anything you do accordance with military specs. Your dimensions, load recommendations, and packages, are identical to mine. Pretty simple, cut and dry.
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:07 AM   #24
William Henniger
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

Josh:

We are using different material/stitching hence different load ratings. It wouldn't matter who built the item other than the fact that the material is the same spec material used for high wear tactical gear hence the specification.

They will be put to the test in the field, their reputation will be built upon those that use them. We have the materials posted on the products page - 1000D Cordura.

We are adding rubber kilo blocks for filler amongst a ton of other items. Very much like the Bulgarian Sand Bag which has identical handles.

For the DIY folks out there, here is link to making a Bulgarian Bag: http://synergy-athletics.com/?p=1252 wfs


Thanks,

Bill
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:02 PM   #25
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

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Originally Posted by William Henniger View Post
With regards to barbells, take one apart and see exactly what is going on. The Eleiko bar has been cut down and reverse engineered by every bar manufacturer known to man. You will find aspects of that bar in all current weightlifting bars. From the snap rings to the steel mix. It may look a bit different but I assure you the barbell business is one of the most cut throat businesses. This is a business where there are trade secrets and zero patents other than the fat bar.

Your comparison to barbells is incorrect, call the barbell manufacturers you carry and ask them. Your bumper comparison is the same, every manufacturer you have listed comes from China. Again do some research and you may find it interesting where all of their equipment comes from. I agree in the end the barbells end up with their own look and feel which will drive lifters to choose certain brands.
In what country - or even in what manufacturing plant - a product is made has nothing to do with this. It would make no difference if Eleiko, Werksan and York all had their bars made in the same place - it's the actual designs of the bars that matters, and those designs are not the same, whether or not you think they all look alike, or that everyone is simply ripping of Eleiko.

That the barbell business is "cutthroat" has nothing to do with the issue at hand - no one is worrying about a barbell right now. And the fact that, as you say, there are "trade secrets" says quite clearly that designs and manufacturing processes are different - I don't know how you think that supports your point. Regarding patents - this particular issue is less legal than simply ethical.

If you can seriously tell me that a York bar is identical to an Eleiko bar, I don't even know what else to say... These two bars are remarkably different. And such a product, by necessity, must conform to tighter parameters than something like a sandbag - there is far less latitude with regard to how an Olympic bar can be manufactured, because its function is so specific. So the differences may seem to be minor, but it's all relative. Same goes for bumpers of a certain quality level.

(And as an aside, I didn't make the comparison originally - I was just making a clarification regarding the issue using the comparison made by another poster)

But a sandbag.... The comparison is downright absurd. People have been using and manufacturing sandbags for many years, and none have been even remotely similar to Henkin's design - until Rogue's. A Bulgarian bag? Not even close.

The impression I get from your post is that you believe all of these things are just community property for anyone to come in and use in order to supply their own customers. I understand the needs of business, but I also understand boundaries and ethics, and in a community such as this, I suppose I have higher expectations for respect for those things than I might elsewhere.

Using different material and type of thread does not constitute a legitimate change - especially when everything is still of the same basic type, ie nylon, which is nothing new for sandbag shells.

Adding rubber kilo blocks for filler? What does this have to do with anything? You created a new product that works with an existing one - Good job; I'm sure they will be great. But creating a new filler material doesn't change the fact that your shells and filler bags are identical to Henkin's.

I said my previous post was my last, but I can't help but be aggravated by this discussion. Really it has nothing to do with me, other than my interest in the principles involved. Bill, I don't know you personally, and I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you to be a good guy, but this sandbag is a real problem, and no amount of arguing about the barbell business, locations of manufacturing, finger-pointing at other manufacturers for stealing designs, or anything else will distract from the facts surrounding the actual product in question.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:06 PM   #26
William Henniger
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

Greg & Josh:

I have posted my phone number twice as I would gladly speak to you about these products.

614.358.6190

If you are in the area, I would be happy to speak to you in person as well.

This is my last post on this.

Thanks,

Bill
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:30 PM   #27
Louis Andre Pardo
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Everett View Post
One last post, because the issue seems to be getting lost within a few posters' confusion....

Making a similar product that competes with an existing product is completely legit. Of course - that's free market capitalism, and that, at least in theory, is what ultimately drives continuing improvements in product offerings. But the development of such a product should involve some kind of variation and, presumably, improvement - not simple duplication.

It's not a copy of "the sandbag" in some general sense - it's a copy of a very specific and unique design, created by Josh Henkin, of a sandbag and associated filler bags. These are extremely different things, and if you can't understand the distinction, this particular issue is beyond your reach. Objection to this idea is no different to me than saying one can reprint and sell a book because no one owns the rights to "the book" - it's not the book that matters, it's the content. Similarly, it's not "the bag" - it's the unique design of that bag.

York, Eleiko and Werksan bars and bumpers are considerably different from each other, in fact; as are different brands of KBs, etc. The differences between these products are quite clear to the athletes who actually use them; I've never encountered a weightlifter, for example, who couldn't see and feel a difference among barbells, and who didn't have a preference for one over others. These companies make their own products that serve the same need, which means they will have to be similar in many respects; but they don't take their competitors' products to a manufacturer and ask that they be duplicated.

From what I can see, the rogue bags are identical, or close enough, having no legitimate or purposeful deviation from Henkin's design. I would like to think that's not the case, and if it isn't, my apologies to bill/rogue... but the photos here suggest otherwise.
Wrong...I'm not even taking sides on this one but there is a lot more to a product than just specs and features...brand name and price are two important variable. If a designer doesnt bother to copyright his product and then someone else can come from behind and with the exact same product compete then the original designer is to blame:
1) Original designer/manufacturer should have copyright (obviously that is not really applicable for a bag that holds sand)
2) In the absence of a copyright original manufacturer should have kept the barriers to entry high with very low costs in order to keep the competition out.

The fact that Rogue saw that there was an opportunity to enter the market and give an alternative, even if it is in price and brand only, speaks highly of Rogue. Josh would find open arms from his potential customers if he added features or lowered the price to one-up Rogue.

This is the nature of competition.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:45 PM   #28
Sean Dunston
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

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Originally Posted by Louis Andre Pardo View Post
The fact that Rogue saw that there was an opportunity to enter the market and give an alternative, even if it is in price and brand only, speaks highly of Rogue.
I won't get into the legal issues because IP is not my area of the law.

I think what is causing concern with the original manufacturer is the way Rogue became familiar with the product.

However, it is like the old adage: if you build a better mousetrap...
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:03 PM   #29
Sam Ser
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

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Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
I won't get into the legal issues because IP is not my area of the law.

I think what is causing concern with the original manufacturer is the way Rogue became familiar with the product.

However, it is like the old adage: if you build a better mousetrap...
it seems like the issue is someone building a mousetrap that is, for all intents and purposes, identical, and calling it unique. i don't know whether that's the case, as i've never seen either bag in person, but bill can speak to that. in my humble opinion, i think he SHOULD speak to that -- and not about where the bags are manufactured, or whether it is accurate to call them "mil spec," as both issues are pretty meaningless in relation to the issue of ripping off a unique design.

i'm not calling anyone out here, as i've had no dealings with rogue (or josh henkin!) and as so many people here have had a very positive relationship with them... but, bill, putting your phone number out there isn't an answer. just say, plain and simple, "i did NOT rip off josh's design, just using a different fabric and different stitching and calling that unique, even though it's clearly not" -- and then explain how it's different.

as a layman, and as someone with very little sandbag experience, it seems to me that the handles designs and the sealing (zippers, snaps, etc.) designs are the main issues with the bag -- and from the photos, it does look like your bags have the same handles and sealing designs as josh's bags. i could see why he'd be upset.

besides, if your bag has unique characteristics (aside from the fabric and stitching) that make it a better product than josh's, i imagine that you'd want to highlight that.

...by the way, does anyone have both bags, who can chime in here, to explain what's different about them?
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Old 11-12-2009, 01:04 PM   #30
Eric Neri
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Re: ROGUE Tactical Sandbag Review

I'm a little confused by this. Someone invented a plate loaded barbell at some point and later on someone invented an olympic barbell with rotating sleeves. These basic innovations are made by several manufacturers. You could argue that they were somewhat obvious innovations but then again they are not as obvious as a bag of sand within a larger bag - It's smart but this isn't rocket science. The copying of this basic idea has been a long time coming. Rogue certainly isn't the only one: http://www.muscledriverusa.com/satr.html (wfs).
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