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Old 03-23-2006, 11:23 AM   #11
John Seiler
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Chimpanzees quite literally tear apart their foes. This usually happens in group attacks against an outsider as opposed to group infighting. Chimps actively hunt as well. Nasty little buggers.

I'm with Steve, et. al. as regards head strikes or any strikes from a mount. Sure you could use your fist in a street encounter, but why would you? Too many things can go wrong. I have a buddy who broke his hand a couple of years ago kicking a guy out of bar. He boxed in the Corp, knows what he's doing, very strong wrists and thick bone structure. The other guy moved at the last second and my friend's hand hasn't been the same since.
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Old 03-23-2006, 10:08 PM   #12
Jibreel Freeland
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Are the knuckles not made of cartilege? I think that punching is overrated and glorified by Hollywood. I didn't like the flick, but in the recent movie "History of Violence" they got it right...lot's of wind pipe crushing knife hand strikes.

IMO the final verdict of any street fight after skill relies on hand and forearm strength, not for striking but for clenching.
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Old 03-24-2006, 01:28 AM   #13
Blair Robert Lowe
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I was under the impression that when apes fight and flail against each other they do with the palm of their hands and edge, many times from a high point to a low point.
One of the tricks of using a fist is to open up the target so the strike cannot be absorbed and dissipated by the body and spine. Expose the area, unbalance the spine and unleash unto the target.
If the body is in balance or spine is rather, they body can absorb the blow. If it isn't, pain will be a'coming.
The use of open vs close hand strikes will also vary if they are in sporting matches, one on one fights or multiple opponent/urban/battlefield scenarios. The strategies there of differ dramatically.
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Old 03-26-2006, 02:07 AM   #14
Sam Cannons
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Remember that human physiology is very highly adaptable. Bones become very dense and skin hard and leathery. You only have to look at the old chinese iron fist masters to see what sort of damage the human knuckles are capable of withstanding. Having said that alot of the chinese iron styles revolve around the palm and the body. There is a type of Boxing done in india called 'muki boxing' that is all bare knuckle stuff and they spend alot of time hitting brick walls and metal sheets !!!
Reagrds
Sam
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Old 03-26-2006, 10:38 AM   #15
John Seiler
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Sam,
Many moons ago I got into a fight with a concrete wall cleverly disguised as siding on frame. I wish I would have had some muki boxing training then as I fractured my 5th metacarpal. In the mean time, I've resolved not to get in any more of those types of fights.

In all seriousness, walls don't move; people do. I think I'd rather use my body the way it's designed to be used. Besides, the Crossfit girls already make me feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall.
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Old 03-26-2006, 06:29 PM   #16
Barry Cooper
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No one mentioned what the Japanese call Shuto, which I think translates "sword-hand". It's roughly your plain old Karate chop, and uses the soft tissue on the side of your hand opposite the thumb. I hit a metal post in the back of my gym all the time, and it does no damage at all, yet if you hit someones jaw, temple, throat, neck, ribs, kidneys and a number of other locations, it puts the hurt on. You can hit very hard, and even if you hit something hard, it doesn't hurt you. It's fast, too, if set up properly.

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Old 03-26-2006, 08:30 PM   #17
Jeff Gentry
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Hey Gent's

I think the main thing in punching(closed fist) is conditioning the knuckle's/hand's and wrist and knowing how and where to hit, it can be done, I just think it is more dangerous.

Jeff
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Old 03-27-2006, 12:10 AM   #18
Jason Erickson
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"Conditioning" the hands is just plain silly. Why spend years intentionally inducing micro-traumas to the hand which may ultimately result in permanent damage when you can spend mere months developing a reasonably effective alternative that won't hurt you?

No matter how hard your hand, it's ineffective if you don't hit your target. Accuracy is the most valuable attribute you can train, and pays the greatest dividends for the amount of time put in.

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Old 03-27-2006, 12:34 PM   #19
Skip Chase
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First, we are neither monkeys nor apes nor did we evolve from monkeys nor apes. We fight like humans.

IMO the fist is an excellent striking tool when the fighter is trained and the wrist, forearm and knuckles are conditioned.

I fractured my 4th and 5th metacarpals when I was in 5th grade when I punched a 9th grader improperly. When I got home to my grandfather, who was a doctor, he looked at my hand and said,"Hmmm, the 'boxers' break. Who did you punch?"

After my hand healed, he gave me a lesson on punching. He explained that the radial/scaphoid(hardest bone in the human body)/capitate alignment with the index finger and 3rd finger knuckle were there for striking and to always make contact with ONLY those 2 knuckles.

When I arrived on Okinawa in 1970, I began studying Isshinryu karate. We spent hours and hours training and conditioning our strike by punching makiwara, boxes of sand and gravel and performing push-ups ONLY on the 2nd and 3rd knuckles.

Yes, we also conditioned our hands for hammer blows, back fist, sword strike, palm strike, finger strike, etc.

During combat, you cannot anticipate what strike you will use nor when. The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself, and the entire body, including the fist, should be prepared.

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Old 03-28-2006, 11:22 AM   #20
Jibreel Freeland
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Thank you Skip, but this is not a discussion on evolution/creation.

Also there is no conditioning cartilage, only degrading it. Cartilage has no blood flow thus heals in a very different and slow manner than bones and other tissues.

I think that ironfist is a myth. Master Ping who punched the iron block over and over just created swelling in his knuckles and is doubtless in serious and chronic pain because of it.



(Message edited by nothing on March 28, 2006)
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