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Old 05-31-2008, 04:50 PM   #31
Steven Low
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

I think there's a saying goes something like

don't air your dirty laundry in public
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Old 05-31-2008, 04:52 PM   #32
Frank Tardi
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
I think there's a saying goes something like

don't air your dirty laundry in public
i like it! ill be sure to use that one sometime. love the advice http://board.crossfit.com/images/cnome/smilies/haha.gif
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Old 05-31-2008, 05:50 PM   #33
David Wood
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Hmmm.

Folks, we've got a pretty amazing case of bad manners here; let's not make it any worse.
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:48 PM   #34
Frank Tardi
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

yah that was my bad - i started it. its over an done with, sorry
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Old 05-31-2008, 08:06 PM   #35
Alicia Michel
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Looks interesting.. I'm going to have to try it tomorrow. How much pressure does it put on the joints? I've tried normal kips before and the going down part kind of hurts - my arms feel like they're being ripped out of their sockets. This butterfly kip looks more painful (?!)
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Old 05-31-2008, 08:23 PM   #36
Allen Yeh
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Robb had a good post on the BFK on his blog. WFS

http://*************/?p=90
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Old 05-31-2008, 11:25 PM   #37
Kirez Reynolds
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Alicia -- my wife and I were just discussing why so many people suffer from elbow tendonitis as a result of doing tons of pull-ups (and I think kipping PUs are probably more problematic in this respect). I suggested that maybe these people are hyperextending (perhaps without knowing it?) at the bottom. Possibly true for some, but not most. I'm still really curious about what's causing the elbow problems.

I think you can actually control the downward force better with the butterfly kip. The way the kip translates horizontal force into vertical force is much of its difference -- in efficiency, impact on the muscles, which muscles it uses, ability to generate speed. At the bottom of the butterfly kip, you're dropping straight down --- but you generate the horizontal force by cycling your legs fast and hard. Instead of a large rotational swing with the whole body, generated by pushing off the bar at the top, you generate a small rotational swing with just the legs.

By controlling this smaller-radius swing, I think you can actually 'smooth' the downward impact on the arms.

I'm not absolutely certain of this, just reflecting on how I've felt it, and why. Last time I tried it, it felt smoother and less harsh on the "dropping" impact, and I was focusing on that leg cycle. Perhaps it also takes a little practice to get this control.

With the 'big' whole-body swing, the eva kip can feel less harsh, but I think this also is coming from a learned control. When I was first learning it, my poor timing on the downward swing often had me dropping hard on my shoulders.

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It was an unpleasant surprise, finding my Private Message posted publicly, especially because the PM was exceptionally negative and I was already regretting it. So in some sense, I deserved it --- my note to Frank was extremely harsh, and I walked away from the computer thinking "Damn that was a stupid thing to do, what is with this judgmental mood I'm in?" (then I told my wife I did something stupid.) It really was poor of me even to bother writing such a note; my bad. I should be smarter as well as less judgmental.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:38 AM   #38
Kirez Reynolds
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

This is the 2nd time I've had to return to a thread and take back something I'd previously posted -- and the 1st time was also in response to Alicia (a nutrition thread, about the value of breakfast; I said "unnecessary" and my wife insists the traditional wisdom is correct.)

When you're dropping downward from a pull-up, the strain on your shoulder girdle comes from decelerating and stopping your body's mass. The greater the speed, the greater the force that must be applied to stop the same mass.

If you are changing direction -- as you do at the bottom of a pull-up, continuing into the next pull-up -- EVEN IF you are powering momentum into the direction change by cycling your legs, all the momentum still pulls against the shoulder girdle, your elbows and grip, and the stretch of your torso. You can probably lessen the impact on your shoulder girdle by absorbing some of it with your torso, but as long as you're changing direction and going back up ---- that centripetal force hits the shoulder girdle.

If you're doing the butterfly kip, the change of direction is less radial (has a much smaller radius). It's faster. Mass is the same.

Inevitably, this has got to involve more force against the shoulder girdle.

I said the leg cycle smooths the movement -- and it's true, it feels smoother. But this can't change the physics as far as I can tell. So I think the butterfly kips must be harsher on the shoulder girdle than the regular kips.
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:47 AM   #39
Steven Low
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

Yep Kirez. If you looked through the a couple of the old kipping threads we mainly deduced that:

regular kip SEEMS to be more efficient in terms of overall workload (although that may be because most people aren't proficient with it seeing Rob's post now.. I'll have to try it once I can get on a good pullup bar). It does have less of a strength requirement than BFK though that we do know.

BFK/AFT/whatever you want to call it seems to put greater forces on the shoulder girdle namely because of your rotational analysis (which we termed basically "dropping down" from the top as opposed to the horizontal-vertical-horizontal e.g. push away motion).

Both harness some aspect of stretch-shorten cycle. Both develop power towards 1 RM strength & both are somewhat "superior" to deadhangs in that respect.


Tendonitis, or rather tendonosis, is mainly from either overuse (aka CFers pushing through pain stupidly) or additional stress on the elbows such as not letting them lock out much like you'd see in a one arm pullup or bent arm deadlift. I don't know why but people don't like locking out their arms for some reason, heh. I wouldn't say it's from this directly though. The shoulder problems though may stem from poor activation of the shoulder girdle that I do believe.
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:51 AM   #40
Ian Haya
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Re: Butterfly Kip Tutorial

I've been playing around with this a bit before. My first attempts were on a split bar, so I had less fear of the chin crashing on the bar, but still hadn't got the rhythm down.

I've recently started added some work on them in my warmup, much to my coach's (Anthony Bainbridge) dismay. He doesn't want me getting good at them before he does! After watching this video, the little tip of playing around with the motion in the bottom without coming up really helped me get a feel for it and how to properly transfer the weight.

I still don't have it perfected, but it has been getting better! The key is to keep your lower legs bent back and loaded on the way down. If you get them too far forward too early, then the weight shifts in front of the bar and you get a pendulum swing rather than the rotary swing.
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