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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 03-20-2010, 12:19 AM   #101
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
I think planning and periodization would be very important to a novice, but it would be useful for an advanced trainee as well.
Take a look at Ricky Frausto's blog (wfs) to see the kind of block periodization I would like to see eventually offered as part of the CF philosophy.

I would hope that nobody suggests that a competitive olympian should switch to do main site WODs instead of the program that got them to be an olympian. I'm sure they can learn a lot from CF and very selectively incorporate some of the information and methods into their own training.
Olympians by design have to be more specified than doing mainsite WODs I think everyone is in agreement with that..and yeah they could incorporate some of the philosophy of working on chinks in GPP, but you don't necessarily need CF for that...though why not.
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Old 03-20-2010, 12:33 AM   #102
Mauricio Leal
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
These program differ from the main site WODs in a significant enough manner, as to make it impossible to say that they are all different expressions of the same prescription.
No. According to you they do, but you have no objective basis for this, and people have repeatedly tried to explain that CF is more than mainsite. You can have a periodized strength program and still have constantly varied elements within and outside of it. If I draw from a hat to pick a different squat variation (FS, OHS, HBBS, LBBS, Zercher, etc.) every N mesocycles while adhering to a fixed program like 5/3/1, is that not still a form of constant variation, even *gasp* randomization? Heck, even regular periodization has constant variation, albeit predictably so and over larger time scales. CF is not random -- not even pseudo-random; There are a finite set of movements and a finite, although quite large, number of ways in which they can be combined intelligently (i.e. with considerations for energy pathways, overload, recovery). There are reasons why you don't see 100 x 1RM DL for time anywhere.

If you can't convince anyone here that CF is random or that a well-defined boundary exists where a program becomes not CF anymore (which is admittedly frustrating, but there isn't always a closed form answer), then what else is there that you hope to convey within this thread?
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Old 03-20-2010, 12:47 AM   #103
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
I don't have a threshold in mind. I don't think that one should exist, either. I was trying to make the point that if the CF prescription is "constantly varied if not random" then CFFB, CFSB, CFWF and all the other hybrids are not really following the prescription. These program differ from the main site WODs in a significant enough manner, as to make it impossible to say that they are all different expressions of the same prescription.
Crossfit is a trademark. The people at CFHQ have ultimate control over who can and cannot call what they're doing "Crossfit." They have allowed (encouraged) CFFB and the rest to use the Crossfit name.

Since CFHQ says these programs are Crossfit, on what basis do you claim that they're not?

Katherine
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:33 AM   #104
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Crossfit is a trademark. The people at CFHQ have ultimate control over who can and cannot call what they're doing "Crossfit." They have allowed (encouraged) CFFB and the rest to use the Crossfit name.

Since CFHQ says these programs are Crossfit, on what basis do you claim that they're not?

Katherine
Whether these program deviate substantially from the prescription presented by crossfit, is debatable. It is my opinion that they do. This has nothing to do with trademarks, ownership or corporations. Do you really think this has anything to do with the discussion?
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:40 AM   #105
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Mauricio Leal View Post
No. According to you they do, but you have no objective basis for this, and people have repeatedly tried to explain that CF is more than mainsite. You can have a periodized strength program and still have constantly varied elements within and outside of it. If I draw from a hat to pick a different squat variation (FS, OHS, HBBS, LBBS, Zercher, etc.) every N mesocycles while adhering to a fixed program like 5/3/1, is that not still a form of constant variation, even *gasp* randomization? Heck, even regular periodization has constant variation, albeit predictably so and over larger time scales. CF is not random -- not even pseudo-random; There are a finite set of movements and a finite, although quite large, number of ways in which they can be combined intelligently (i.e. with considerations for energy pathways, overload, recovery). There are reasons why you don't see 100 x 1RM DL for time anywhere.

If you can't convince anyone here that CF is random or that a well-defined boundary exists where a program becomes not CF anymore (which is admittedly frustrating, but there isn't always a closed form answer), then what else is there that you hope to convey within this thread?
This is a minor point in the discussion in this thread. It is much less important if CFSB is called CF or not. My main point regards the value of adding periodization or planning into the CF prescription. I think I conveyed my thoughts clearly. You can agree or disagree.
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Old 03-20-2010, 02:49 AM   #106
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Marcel Zwinger View Post
crossfit...is...not...mainsite.com...


and besides: let's imagine a different look, which ....yet again... mimics real life a bit better (and personally I'd love to see some kind of variation of this):
say 50 athletes join a special type of "crossfit games", which last from 01.01.2011 to 31.12.2011.
In this timeframe at any given point CFHQ can knock on your door and throw a WOD at your face. let's say about 10 spread out in 12 month.
but you don't know when this is going to happen and of course you have no idea about the WOD's itself.

how would you train yourself?
That's a good question. It is very relevant to people who train for the job (LEO, mil, firefighters). I would probably say that for them a more balanced program is more appropriate. I would still think that some planning and prioritizing would be in order. I think it would be a trade off that a normal athlete doesn't have to make.
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Old 03-20-2010, 04:28 AM   #107
Wayne Riddle
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Marcel Zwinger View Post
crossfit...is...not...mainsite.com...
But is mainsite.com Crossfit?
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:26 AM   #108
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Can you please elaborate on the distinction between these and how it is implemented in the main site WODs? What is the micro/macro programming that is implemented into main site WODs?
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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
I do not speak for CFHQ, and have better things to do with my morning than analyze a couple months worth of WODs. Were you to do so, however, I think you would find both individual microcycles that focus on particular fitness domains and/or body parts, and longer macrocycles that ensure coverage of all fitness domains on a regular basis.

One could also deploy any of a number of mathematical tools to rigorously analyze the randomness of the WODs. The methods are well known, but I honestly don't care enough to invest the time.
Katherine
Seriously, if the mainsite wods represent any organized, planned programming at all, why can no one demonstrate that? It does nothing to point to a Journal article about a theoretical template, it does nothing to argue about the meaning of “random” vs. “constantly varied,” it does nothing to say that the answers are in the journal and the certs, and it does nothing to state that many affiliates implement programming. The only meaningful response to this show some actual pattern and organization in the mainsite wods over some reasonable period of time.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
I also don't want to mathematically analyze the WODs to see if they are truly random or not. If no one can point to any organizational method, I'll keep assuming that they are undistinguishable from random.
Me too!

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If you can't convince anyone here that CF is random….
He doesn’t have to convince me. I’ve yet to see any evidence at all that it is not.
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Old 03-20-2010, 11:00 AM   #109
Darrell E. White
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

Mainsite WOD's are not random. There is a long-term planning to the WOD's. The fact that no one seems to be able to "crack the code", or that no one involved in the planning and posting of the Main Page WOD's has seen fit to share the proprietary template with us is not de facto proof that they are random. I converse with these folks on a weekly basis; they find the ongoing "controversy" about the so-called randomness of the Main page to be laughable.

I find it equally laughable that anyone can say that CFSB is not Crossfit and do so with a straight face. There is a layered strength program that is not varied at all, but the strength aspect of the program is the supplemental aspect. The WOD's in the CFSB template are, indeed, constantly varied. There is an emphasis on shorter, heavier, more intense met-cons with fewer longer met-cons to be sure, but this is itself in response to the well-established CF effect of acquiring fitness in longer time domains through the use of training at high intensity in shorter time domains. In short, Crossfit.

What makes me so sure? Well, I was one of the "Crash Test Dummies" in the CFSB trial, I co-authored the article, and I continue to be involved in the evolution of the program. Since this thread has collapsed on its own weight to the extent that even CFSB is controversial as a version of Crossfit I will take my leave.

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Old 03-20-2010, 12:39 PM   #110
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
Mainsite WOD's are not random. There is a long-term planning to the WOD's. The fact that no one seems to be able to "crack the code", or that no one involved in the planning and posting of the Main Page WOD's has seen fit to share the proprietary template with us is not de facto proof that they are random.
Well, I guess we're equally incompetent. I claim that they are random but I honestly wouldn't even know how to "prove" that they are. I'm just saying that I will assume they are random until someone can show me a pattern. You are clearly among those who state as fact that they are not random and yet can't provide such a pattern. Or, since you are so tight with the inner circle, maybe you could provide that pattern but have been sworn to secrecy. Is there a secret handshake?

"Proprietary template"? I'll have to think about that concept for awhile with regards to "open source."
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