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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 03-19-2010, 09:42 AM   #91
Lincoln Brigham
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
From the theoretical template journal article:
"At first glance the template seems to be offering a routine or regimen. This may seem at odds with our contention that workouts need considerable variance or unpredictability, if not randomness, to best mimic the often unforeseeable challenges that combat, sport, and survival demand and reward."

I also don't want to mathematically analyze the WODs to see if they are truly random or not. If no one can point to any organizational method, I'll keep assuming that they are undistinguishable from random.

And this is the point I'm tryng to make. Is constantly varied (to the point that it is undistinguishable from random) better or worse than a periodized program?
The information you seek is in the Crossfit Journal, it's in the seminars.

There is some leeway for a coach to decide how much of his Crossfit program is random and how much is planned variety. The method is not carved in stone.

Crossfit does not use periodization at the micro level but it certainly allows for it on the longer term. Periodic bouts of specialization or semi-specialization have been around in Crossfit for as far back as I can remember. "Regularly learn and play new sports", MEBB, CFSB, SS, "take a week off from training on a regular basis" etc. are all versions of periodization on the macro level that I have seen in use in Crossfit programs. Whether or not this is "better or worse" than other forms of periodization is up for you to decide.
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Old 03-19-2010, 09:48 AM   #92
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
Nice selective quoting... From a few paragraphs further down:



And therein lies the difference between "varied" and "random."



We've pointed to an organizational method: the template article.

The Catalyst Athletics article you linked discusses programming done at an affiliate with specific individuals in mind. I don't think anyone, including Coach Glassman, would deny that individualized goal-directed programming is likely to be more effective than one-size-fits-all generic programming. Which I guess brings us back to the "what is Crossfit?" debate. *Yawn.*

Katherine
The goals and specifics are individualized, but the concept of periodization is not. My understanding of the crossfit template and prescription is at odds with periodization.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:05 AM   #93
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
The goals and specifics are individualized, but the concept of periodization is not. My understanding of the crossfit template and prescription is at odds with periodization.
What is periodization to you?
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:09 AM   #94
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
The goals and specifics are individualized, but the concept of periodization is not. My understanding of the crossfit template and prescription is at odds with periodization.
My point is that "generic periodization" is impossible. To be effective, periodization *must* consider the individual's capabilities and goals, not to mention the schedules imposed by things like competitions. That makes it impossible to do within the constraints of the main page programming, but very possible to do at the affiliate level.

The Catalyst Athletics article you linked talks about "plandomization," in which some elements are planned well in advance and some are planned only at the level of microcycles and individual workouts. That approach seems to me--and I think to the author-- to be completely within the spirit of affiliate/individual-scale Crossfit.

Katherine
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:33 AM   #95
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
My point is that "generic periodization" is impossible. To be effective, periodization *must* consider the individual's capabilities and goals, not to mention the schedules imposed by things like competitions. That makes it impossible to do within the constraints of the main page programming, but very possible to do at the affiliate level.

The Catalyst Athletics article you linked talks about "plandomization," in which some elements are planned well in advance and some are planned only at the level of microcycles and individual workouts. That approach seems to me--and I think to the author-- to be completely within the spirit of affiliate/individual-scale Crossfit.

Katherine
I don't think that "generic periodization" is impossible. I would like to see CF evolve to include a basic template of athletic development, where the basic CF prescription is biased toward specific goals (plandomized) at different stages of the athletes level.
This would be at odds with "The needs of Olympic athletes and our grandparents differ by degree not kind. Our terrorist hunters, skiers, mountain bike riders and housewives have found their best fitness from the same regimen.". In my view that would have to change.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:59 PM   #96
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
So where is the line, Alex? What is the exact % of movements that I need to randomize in order for my program to be CF?
if I add another conditioning workout and increase the time doamin to somewhere between 3-25 minutes, then do I get to call it a version of CF?
Sounds to me like the only thing I can do to make a program not CF is add bicep curls.
My point wasn't that there is some formal cutoff, and even if there was, I certainly wouldn't be the one to make that decision. My point was twofold:

1) If only 1% of your training volume is based around metabolic conditioning then that's obviously not enough to say that a program is "CrossFit" because IWCABTAMD is clearly not anywhere near the top of your list of goals.

2) You obviously have some threshold in mind since made the pretty outlandish claim that CrossFit Football isn't CrossFit, why don't you share it with us.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
My point is that CF is not a training program/protocol. Main site WODs are. As I see it, CF is more a training philosophy
You're right. So what's your point? CrossFit was never intended to be a "program." Is this anything more than an argument over semantics?

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
I don't think that "generic periodization" is impossible. I would like to see CF evolve to include a basic template of athletic development, where the basic CF prescription is biased toward specific goals (plandomized) at different stages of the athletes level.
OK, so if that's what YOU'D like to see, then get a group of athletes and train them in whichever way you see fit. If there is a statistically significant improvement compared to what is currently offered, then write up a CFJ piece, bring it to the table with CFHQ, and see where things go from there.

And I'm not saying that with any attitude or malice, but rather with a sincere hope that you're willing to try it and bring something tangible to the table because currently you seem to be basing your argument simpy on your opinion that periodization (although you did not specify what KIND of periodization) is superior to the current CrossFit model of constant variation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
This would be at odds with "The needs of Olympic athletes and our grandparents differ by degree not kind. Our terrorist hunters, skiers, mountain bike riders and housewives have found their best fitness from the same regimen.". In my view that would have to change.
Really? Why do you say this? If you're still using functional movements at high intensity, does that not fit the needs of Olympians and our grandparents alike? Isn't this what you're hoping to accomplish with "generic periodization?"

- Alex
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Old 03-19-2010, 03:56 PM   #97
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
Really? Why do you say this? If you're still using functional movements at high intensity, does that not fit the needs of Olympians and our grandparents alike? Isn't this what you're hoping to accomplish with "generic periodization?"
Don't let me put words into your mouth Moran,

but after re-reading some of this and looking at Alex's quote above...I'd say that you are more interested in a novice athlete correct? And not necessarily anyone who can do mainsite WODs as rx'd...(although lately as rx'd has required some extremely advanced technical skill).

So you don't really care about the needs of the Olympian??
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:21 PM   #98
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Aushion Chatman View Post
Don't let me put words into your mouth Moran,

but after re-reading some of this and looking at Alex's quote above...I'd say that you are more interested in a novice athlete correct? And not necessarily anyone who can do mainsite WODs as rx'd...(although lately as rx'd has required some extremely advanced technical skill).

So you don't really care about the needs of the Olympian??

I think planning and periodization would be very important to a novice, but it would be useful for an advanced trainee as well.
Take a look at Ricky Frausto's blog (wfs) to see the kind of block periodization I would like to see eventually offered as part of the CF philosophy.

I would hope that nobody suggests that a competitive olympian should switch to do main site WODs instead of the program that got them to be an olympian. I'm sure they can learn a lot from CF and very selectively incorporate some of the information and methods into their own training.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:35 PM   #99
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
My point wasn't that there is some formal cutoff, and even if there was, I certainly wouldn't be the one to make that decision. My point was twofold:

1) If only 1% of your training volume is based around metabolic conditioning then that's obviously not enough to say that a program is "CrossFit" because IWCABTAMD is clearly not anywhere near the top of your list of goals.

2) You obviously have some threshold in mind since made the pretty outlandish claim that CrossFit Football isn't CrossFit, why don't you share it with us.

You're right. So what's your point? CrossFit was never intended to be a "program." Is this anything more than an argument over semantics?

OK, so if that's what YOU'D like to see, then get a group of athletes and train them in whichever way you see fit. If there is a statistically significant improvement compared to what is currently offered, then write up a CFJ piece, bring it to the table with CFHQ, and see where things go from there.

And I'm not saying that with any attitude or malice, but rather with a sincere hope that you're willing to try it and bring something tangible to the table because currently you seem to be basing your argument simpy on your opinion that periodization (although you did not specify what KIND of periodization) is superior to the current CrossFit model of constant variation.

Really? Why do you say this? If you're still using functional movements at high intensity, does that not fit the needs of Olympians and our grandparents alike? Isn't this what you're hoping to accomplish with "generic periodization?"

- Alex
I don't have a threshold in mind. I don't think that one should exist, either. I was trying to make the point that if the CF prescription is "constantly varied if not random" then CFFB, CFSB, CFWF and all the other hybrids are not really following the prescription. These program differ from the main site WODs in a significant enough manner, as to make it impossible to say that they are all different expressions of the same prescription.

I'm not currently training people, but that might change in the future. I'm obviously not the only one that think that periodization is a valuable concept, and I hope that with time it will make it into the CF prescription or at least the common implementation of the CF.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:51 PM   #100
Marcel Zwinger
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

crossfit...is...not...mainsite.com...


and besides: let's imagine a different look, which ....yet again... mimics real life a bit better (and personally I'd love to see some kind of variation of this):
say 50 athletes join a special type of "crossfit games", which last from 01.01.2011 to 31.12.2011.
In this timeframe at any given point CFHQ can knock on your door and throw a WOD at your face. let's say about 10 spread out in 12 month.
but you don't know when this is going to happen and of course you have no idea about the WOD's itself.

how would you train yourself?
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