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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 03-18-2010, 02:01 PM   #71
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

Bingo, the fact that you assume that crossfit is the only training method that applies high intensity is mainly a testement to how little you have endeavored outside of the castle in your search of fitness information.
It sounds to you like "SS then some other version of CF" becuase that is what you know. It isn't. It's the standard sports protocol for building an athlete of any kind. It's periodization.
the main problem I see with CF is that it's too random. Here's another thought experiment that might make it more clear:
Twin #2 does his program. Twin #1 gets to do the exact same training sessions that twin #2 will do during the whole year, only the order is randomized. All the workouts twin #2 will do during the year are tossed into a hat and each day twin #1 draws a workout and does it.
Who will win at the one year hopper trial?

As for "other versions of CF" (aka CFSB, CFFB, or any other hybrid), they are not CF. they are not varied. not in exercise selection, not in loads, not in progression.

Quote:
But only because you train "work capacity" in twin two
Every athlete trains to increase his work capacity. It's the conditioning part of S&C.
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Last edited by Moran Bentzur; 03-18-2010 at 02:04 PM..
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:39 PM   #72
Darrell E. White
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

Not enough time to give a proper answer Moran (gotta go to the gym), but I'd caution you not to paint me with such a broad (or narrow as the case may be) brush. I'm a 50 year old former college football/lacrosse/golfer, former martial artist, scientist/fitness wonk. I've spent lots of time in countless "castles".

Assume both less and more of your partners in an internet conversation and enjoy a more fruitful interaction

I'll check back later after my workout and my "honey-do list" is done.

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Old 03-18-2010, 06:23 PM   #73
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

Moran, you can be constantly varied AND have micro/macro programming...constantly varying something denotes intention, not randomness...
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:23 PM   #74
Matt Charney
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

I quit reading after the 3rd page. So if I am repeating stuff I apologize now.


I haven't seen any comments directly from Storm the mens winner at the sectionals but Ingid has made a comment on the games page. http://games2010.crossfit.com/qualif...l#comment-3386 At last years Qualifiers she didn't fair so well. We'll see how she does against more seasoned CrossFitters at the Regionals.

After attending last years Socal Qualifiers & the Games then the Socal Sectionals I have to say that the overall level of competition has greatly increased.

I was at the OC Throwdown where Storm was beat by 3 of the athletes he beat this weekend. It sounds contradictory but there was a high percentage of the men who were not there to advance. This was their Games.

The top athletes were at a level comparable to last years qualifiers. Only problem for them is the athletes that qualified last year have been training hard for the last year also. Can't wait to see the improvements that McCarroll, Nessa, Kinnick, Petranek, Millar have made.

SHould be a lot of fun.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:50 PM   #75
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Moran, you can be constantly varied AND have micro/macro programming...constantly varying something denotes intention, not randomness...
I'm not sure I understand the distinction. please elaborate.
Where is the line? What program isn't CF? is any program CF if I throw in a varied 3-5 minute conditioning workout after my last workout of the week?
What is the micro/macro programming in the main site WOD? Is that not part of the "open source" package?
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Old 03-18-2010, 10:48 PM   #76
Adam Acosta
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Matt Charney View Post
I haven't seen any comments directly from Storm the mens winner at the sectionals but Ingid has made a comment on the games page. http://games2010.crossfit.com/qualif...l#comment-3386 At last years Qualifiers she didn't fair so well. We'll see how she does against more seasoned CrossFitters at the Regionals.

After attending last years Socal Qualifiers & the Games then the Socal Sectionals I have to say that the overall level of competition has greatly increased.

I was at the OC Throwdown where Storm was beat by 3 of the athletes he beat this weekend. It sounds contradictory but there was a high percentage of the men who were not there to advance. This was their Games.

The top athletes were at a level comparable to last years qualifiers. Only problem for them is the athletes that qualified last year have been training hard for the last year also. Can't wait to see the improvements that McCarroll, Nessa, Kinnick, Petranek, Millar have made.

SHould be a lot of fun.
I think it's pretty clear, as was Ingrid's experience last year, that no one is going to come in and win a competition with little to no specific CrossFit experience. The workouts take some getting used to, regardless of your background. You need to learn some unfamiliar movements, too. Hell, she still didn't do very well at the pull ups, though that seemed to be her only obvious weakness. Storm's a pretty crappy rower, which hurt him at the throwdown because it was far more emphasized there (it arguably helped him at the sectional, because the guys that killed the row wore themselves out for the rest of the workout). Although, frankly, he was killed by that second workout by his strategy of dropping the weight. We were told the standard was no bouncing deadlifts but the top performers from that workout were bouncing the hell out of them.

Anyway, Storm did compete in the affiliate cup last year, since he joined up and started CrossFitting after last year's regionals and wasn't eligible for individual competition. I don't know exactly what he's been doing, but he's been doing a lot. He doesn't show up to do a WOD every day, but when he does, he kicks the crap out of the rest of us. He's a prison guard and has told me he basically has nothing to do at work so pretty much works out all day. I know he's been doing a lot of additional o-lifting, trying to get some speed back (has a goal of hitting sub-50 seconds again in the 400), and that he goes to regular Krav Maga and heavy bag classes (the tactical application for a prison guard is obvious, so it isn't necessarily to get better at competition but still has a lot of aerobic carry-over). I can tell you that 4th place finish at the throwdown really ate at him. He talks a humble game and said he was just competing for fun, not expecting to advance past regionals and focusing on doing the affiliate cup again, but I didn't believe that for a second.

His ability to recover right now is absurd. He came in Tuesday and did a 12-minute AMRAP getting almost 100 more reps than anyone else in the gym that day. Everyone else I know that competed was barely able to walk on Tuesday.
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:10 AM   #77
Alex Europa
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
the main problem I see with CF is that it's too random. Here's another thought experiment that might make it more clear:
Too random? For what? Based on what? Do most CrossFitters not continue to improve month after month after month (and in some cases for several years) in work capacity AND strength? Yes, even with just the main page. Those with more advanced levels of strength (genetically gifted aside) will obviously need a more structured lifting program to continue to increase their strength levels beyond intermediate/advanced levels. To be clear, I personally believe in a more structured program, although I prefer concurrent rather than linear periodization. But that more has to do with personal necessity and experience rather than any specific research. Besides, I think that the results all come out in the wash at the end anyways because although concurrent periodization doesn't allow for as great of gains in any particular area, MOST athletes that follow a linear periodization tend to lose quite a bit of their results from previous phases as they move from one emphasis to another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Twin #2 does his program. Twin #1 gets to do the exact same training sessions that twin #2 will do during the whole year, only the order is randomized. All the workouts twin #2 will do during the year are tossed into a hat and each day twin #1 draws a workout and does it.
Who will win at the one year hopper trial?
Maybe I don't understand your example, but I think this is the problem that many people with a more "traditional" S&C background have with understanding how the randomization can be effective. In a traditional program, each workout builds on the last, as do the phases. To take those workouts and throw them into a hopper and pull them out randomly would be borderline stupid. However the CrossFit paradigm is very very different than traditional programs, mainly (in my opinion) because it doesn't rely on adaptation from exercises (read: your half-kneeling chop builds your anti-rotational strength which builds your deadlift...or whatever, that was just BS I pulled out of my *** because I think it's asinine) but rather from workouts (read: Fran makes you better at Helen which makes you better at Murph). Yes, I know that those examples are oversimplified. Let's stay focused on the forest please.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
As for "other versions of CF" (aka CFSB, CFFB, or any other hybrid), they are not CF. they are not varied. not in exercise selection, not in loads, not in progression.
They aren't varied, really? Wow. CFFB is probably the least varied (as it is a "pseudo-specialization" program), however I would say that it is vastly more varied than 99% of any other (non-CrossFit) programming out there. I would challenge you to demonstrate your point with numbers based on an analysis of a month or more of programming. Furthermore, what do you consider varied "enough" for something to be considered CrossFit? Not to put you on the spot, but you stated emphatically that they are not CrossFit, therefore you clearly have some line drawn, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Every athlete trains to increase his work capacity. It's the conditioning part of S&C.
Right, but it's CrossFit's contention (as far as I can tell) that doing it across broad time and modal domains is superior because it not only develops very high levels of conditioning, but because the extreme variety (read: "randomness") is far superior for developing GPP. Which they contend is more important for athletes than constantly working with a much more narrow skill set. This is the problem that people run into when they (for example) pick a handful of WODs and rotate them for several weeks to make it less random. I've known several people that have tried it with very little success (I'm aware that n=5 is not a definitive answer on the subject).

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
I'm not sure I understand the distinction. please elaborate.
Where is the line? What program isn't CF?
Admittedly, the line is blurry. A fantastic example in my mind would be someone that de-affiliates (for whatever reason) but continues to program the same way. So they were "CrossFit" before but now they are not? I realize that, formally, affiliation is simply rights to use the CrossFit name, but that is not my point. Gym Jones (all controversy aside) might be a good example of this. It sure looks and feels like CrossFit in many ways, and Mark Twight DEFINITELY did not train anything like that before finding CrossFit, yet they bash tenants of "other programs" (read: CrossFit) on a regular basis. However, they clearly have made changes to their programming that does make it different in some ways, but not so different that I feel compelled to say that it's not CrossFit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
is any program CF if I throw in a varied 3-5 minute conditioning workout after my last workout of the week?
You've already knocked out a critical element: varied time domains, so no. Additionally, the fact that you are probably only varying the movements in about 1% of your total weekly training volume (5 minutes out of 5 hours), I find it hard to imagine that you are falling under the "constantly varied" mantra as well. So again, no.

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Last edited by Alex Europa; 03-19-2010 at 12:20 AM..
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Old 03-19-2010, 05:43 AM   #78
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

So where is the line, Alex? What is the exact % of movements that I need to randomize in order for my program to be CF?
if I add another conditioning workout and increase the time doamin to somewhere between 3-25 minutes, then do I get to call it a version of CF?
Sounds to me like the only thing I can do to make a program not CF is add bicep curls.

My point is that CF is not a training program/protocol. Main site WODs are. As I see it, CF is more a training philosophy. The tenets of this philosophy are functional movements, high intensity, randomization. I think some of the tenets are more valid than others.
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Old 03-19-2010, 07:52 AM   #79
Peter Williams
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
Not enough time to give a proper answer Moran (gotta go to the gym), but I'd caution you not to paint me with such a broad (or narrow as the case may be) brush. I'm a 50 year old former college football/lacrosse/golfer, former martial artist, scientist/fitness wonk. I've spent lots of time in countless "castles".

Assume both less and more of your partners in an internet conversation and enjoy a more fruitful interaction

I'll check back later after my workout and my "honey-do list" is done.

--bingo
Classy post, Darrell.

And good advice.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:03 AM   #80
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
My point is that CF is not a training program/protocol. Main site WODs are. As I see it, CF is more a training philosophy. The tenets of this philosophy are functional movements, high intensity, randomization. I think some of the tenets are more valid than others.
Please provide a link to an official CFHQ statement that the programming is, or should be, random. "Constantly varied" and "random" are not the same thing.

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