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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 03-17-2010, 07:03 PM   #61
Emily Mattes
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Darrell E. White View Post
If we were to pit two athletes with similar genetic gifts from the same sport, and had one do a traditional S&C program in his sport, and the other do Crossfit, which of the two would have the superior fitness base upon which to then layer his sport-specific training?
How do you define a "traditional" S&C program? Because S&C coaches use ALL different types of training Joe Schmoe peewee football coach is going to use something very different than say, Dan John. You can't exactly lump them together and say "Those guys" versus "Crossfit". In fact, the world has not been set up into a black-and-white "Crossfit rebels versus The Establishment" scenario where everyone outside Crossfit engages robotlike in some singular program developed by a monolithic Exercise Committee On High hellbent on suppressing the ideas of the Ayn-Randian Exercise Ubermensch.

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If we took the same two athletes and created the same scenario of S&C training, which would prevail at an event such as the 2008 Games?
If Crossfitting is so superior to traditional S&C, why aren't Crossfitters beating people following traditional S&C?

"Genetic gifts" is your argument . . . Is it not true that these athletes competing in the CF Games are not at the top of their sport? They aren't the most genetically gifted? Mikko Salo is an excellent athlete . . . by Crossfit standards. But isn't it the case that he is nowhere near the genetic gifts of, say, an Olympic-level track-and-field sprinter? And given the vast number of people Crossfitting wouldn't someone with genetic gifts have turned up somewhere? When a non-Crossfitter wins at the games, are you simply going to cry "Genetic gifts! Genetic gifts" over and over rather than looking at their athletic background and training protocol? I'm going to start suggesting that to the coaches of other sports . . . When one team beats yours, just assume that their players are naturally better and there is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with your methods.


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More on point with the OP, given athletes of similar genetic gifts, what sport would produce the more competitive Crossfitter as pertains to Crossfit, the competition?
Apparently not Crossfit, if the results of the Games are any indication.


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Originally Posted by Adam Adkins
You say no athlete uses the crossfit methodology because no athlete follows the mainsite. You discount the possibility that many elite level athletes would train the way many affiliates program. By this logic only the mainsite WOD represents crossfit. But, as someone else already pointed out, there are currently over 1500 affiliates worldwide, none of which I am aware of that simply repost the mainsite WOD. Instead, each uses the crossfit methodology to craft their own WOD to meet the needs or interests of their members.
I addressed this argument in my first post. If your response to questions about programming are "Well, so many affiliates use so many different types of program I'm sure something out there resembles the training of elite athletes" you have resorted to "Crossfit is everything" and hence "Crossfit is nothing."
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:14 PM   #62
adam adkins
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
"Crossfit is everything" and hence "Crossfit is nothing."
That's exactly what it is and that is exactly why you see the ongoing struggle between certain programmers and mainsite. It is also the exact cause of current purge that is going on in crossfit.

Crossfit mainsite is a product. A brand that must be protected. But more generically Crossfit represents a community of people who use a certain methodology to train as an athlete or train other athletes. These are two opposing things. One can be profitted from and the other is just a community of like minded people.

I am a perfect example of this. Am I Crossfit? Well, I have never been to a Crossfit Cert, in fact I have never been to a Crossfit Box. Heck, I have never even done a mainsite WOD or a hero workout. Add that to the fact I think the American Swing and the SDHP are the two worst moves in the gym and there is no way I could be Crossfit.

On the other hand, I am on here all day. I follow numerous affiliate blogs. I steal training logs from certain programmers and model my programming after theirs. I train with outrageous intensity and keep detailed logs of all my times on my personally created Hero workouts and WODs.

So no, there is nothing about me that is crossfit. And, yes, everything about me is crossfit. Unfortunately, this is a moot point and you will be proven correct. I, and others like me, won't be "crossfit" for much longer as HQ is purging all the Paleo-loving Strength Bias guys like me (Viva Whole9).
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:28 PM   #63
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
"Genetic gifts" is your argument . . . Is it not true that these athletes competing in the CF Games are not at the top of their sport? They aren't the most genetically gifted? Mikko Salo is an excellent athlete . . . by Crossfit standards. But isn't it the case that he is nowhere near the genetic gifts of, say, an Olympic-level track-and-field sprinter? And given the vast number of people Crossfitting wouldn't someone with genetic gifts have turned up somewhere?
The number of Crossfitters is minute compared to the number of participants in pretty much any established professional or Olympic sport. The larger the pool, the more gifted people it will contain. The more gifted people, the harder it is to rise to the top.

(And incidentally, wouldn't you think that a sport offering million dollar paychecks would attract more gifted people than one where the top prize is only $25K?)

This is why many high school superstars are unable to compete at the Division I college level, and why many Division I superstars never get to the pros.

Funny you should use Mikko Salo as an example. Wasn't he a soccer player before he discovered Crossfit? But not at the very top level.

Remember, also, that the folks who inspired this thread have only qualified for the Regionals at this point. That's an important accomplishment in itself, but arguments about the supposed superiority of their training should probably wait until after they win the Games. They might be able to beat Mikko Salo or Tanya Wagner, but they haven't done it yet.

Katherine

Last edited by Katherine Derbyshire; 03-17-2010 at 10:31 PM..
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:43 PM   #64
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
If Crossfitting is so superior to traditional S&C, why aren't Crossfitters beating people following traditional S&C?
This is the crux of the problem...We still don't have enough data for you to make this statement at all.

How long does one have to "Crossfit" for you to consider them a "Crossfitter"? What does that even mean? Do they have to follow the mainsite...what if they were doing CF Strength Bias? Or CF Football? Or CF Endurance? Or OPTs programming, Dutch Lowy's...etc etc?

I believe much earlier in this thread it was stated that these track and field athletes beat a hockey player and maybe a football player (I dont remember?)...sounds to me like they didn't just beat people following CF but also your "traditional S&C"..whatever traditional S&C means???

This argument keeps going in circles, and because there is no data ON EITHER SIDE..it will continue going in circles...we all need to take a breath, clearly define what constitutes following a particular "program", and just how many of the top competitors are following this or that program...

Indeed just because Joe Schmoe came from Crossfit Whatever...doesn't mean you can look at the WODs that Box posts and know that is exactly what Joe Schmoe did to prepare for the games...my guess is Joe Schmoe and his coach looked at the type of WODs that previous Games, Regionals, used and surmised a workout program that prepared for that type of competition and working weaknesses in Joe's armor...

Even the affiliate teams usually have their OWN programming, because they are preparing for a different competition...Until you KNOW (have data) what those competitors did to prepare, who's to say they used this or that type of program...mainsite or not...??
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:03 AM   #65
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=54044 wfs

Decathletes and heptathletes are so broad they cover so much when it comes to S&C. 400 runners pretty much sets up you up the ability to sprint well while still being able to run the longer distances.

Let it be known that I was never any good at T&F. Shocking, I know. Hardly ever training the mile and 2miles, I could run a 2mi under 12m when I wasn't doing well and under 6 wasn't a problem. An above 5 as my PR was doable generally low 5's when I was in my game.

I never trained any LSD except for 1 stupid *** run a week besides a half *** track circuit that were more to maintain speed endurance and fitness for polevault. I still had a 2xbw BS back then (ok I do now but I was smaller then and younger). Mostly, I just ran the occasional 800, 1600, or 3200 to see if I could and so the track coaches wouldn't be on my *** about not doing enough events in the day.

I liked the 200 and 400 but didn't run them much my 2nd year of T&F when I focusing on PV mostly but did them almost always my first year and I wasn't even doing the speed endurance circuits then. Just whatever was our sprint training for the day. I was even smaller then not having hit the iron with similar times.

To note, while OPT and Mikko were supposed to be very good soccer players, Khalipa did play HS FB at least I think and Marshall states he has been interested in a variety of sports.

Then again, Caity Matter was a very excellent basketball player.

It's not as if many of these CrossFitters weren't in sports careers years before CF. This is a pretty common pattern. They all adapt to CF pretty fast. There was that elite tumbler who did the HS WOD from CFSC a few months ago.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:32 AM   #66
Darrell E. White
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

Hey Emily...go re-read my post and then your reply. I posed a couple of questions that would be fun to consider and you go all religious fervor on me. Geez...lighten up for cryin' out loud.

"Genetic gifts" is simply my way of saying a top-level athlete in whatever sport. Jerry Rice vs. Walter Payton. Sergei Bubka vs. whoever was second in pole vault that year. Lebron vs. Kobe. Two rookie second basemen in the American League. "Standard S&C" is whatever they would be doing if they didn't do Crossfit. No agenda, no proselytizing, no religion.

Come on...suck it up...see if you can have a little fun with the conversation without getting all righteous about it. The OP opened up a little can of fun. Who cares if it'll never happen. Watching the "fight" simulation between Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano was kinda fun, even though it never happened.

It's possible to have a slightly different conversation once in a while.

--bingo
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:07 AM   #67
Moran Bentzur
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

Bingo, try this scenerio:

Take two "identical twins" that don't have any sports background. They are novices at everything.
The first one gets to do main site WODs with scaling of course cuz he is a begginer.
The second gets a periodized plan. meaning, in the first three months he works almost solely on strength. as he becomes stronger, more emphasis is put on speed, conditioning, endurance using simple implements such as running, rowing, kettlebells, sleds, BW stuff. After his work capacity is increased, he then moves on to focus on increasing his skill set in a methodical manner - rings are introduces, snatch, handstands, double unders, etc...

They meet at the end of the year and do a crossfit games style hopper test. Who wins?
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Old 03-18-2010, 06:44 AM   #68
Tom Seryak
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Bingo, try this scenerio:

Take two "identical twins" that don't have any sports background. They are novices at everything.
The first one gets to do main site WODs with scaling of course cuz he is a begginer.
The second gets a periodized plan. meaning, in the first three months he works almost solely on strength. as he becomes stronger, more emphasis is put on speed, conditioning, endurance using simple implements such as running, rowing, kettlebells, sleds, BW stuff. After his work capacity is increased, he then moves on to focus on increasing his skill set in a methodical manner - rings are introduces, snatch, handstands, double unders, etc...

They meet at the end of the year and do a crossfit games style hopper test. Who wins?
I would put my money on the second twin. Since most "traditional" strength and conditioning programs contain the same movements more or less as Crossfit you have to look at the programming to differentiate. The Crossfit prescription, catch phrase, whatever is "constant variance". My concern with Crossfit (read the mainsite interpretation) is that there is too much focus on variance and not enough focus on progressive overload. A good program that develops athletes beyond 1 or 2 years will contain a balance of both overload and variance.

Josh Everett is a good example of this. From what i have read about his training, it sounds more organized than randomized. I know he had a dissappointing showing at last year games but he competed at our sectional and was set-up to win the whole thing (192 participants) until he didn't participate in the final workout. I would love to have seen him crush that final workout.

Just my opinion, but I think the Games will have to get more structured with the "tests" announced well in advance and a standard scoring system (think strongman competitions) to start comparing training methods. This year's sectional wods are all over the place. "BUT THE CREAM WILL RISE TO THE TOP". I don't know about that. There were several competitors in the top 16 of the Games last year that qualified through the last chance qualifier...
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:01 PM   #69
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Bingo, try this scenerio:

Take two "identical twins" that don't have any sports background. They are novices at everything.
The first one gets to do main site WODs with scaling of course cuz he is a begginer.
The second gets a periodized plan. meaning, in the first three months he works almost solely on strength. as he becomes stronger, more emphasis is put on speed, conditioning, endurance using simple implements such as running, rowing, kettlebells, sleds, BW stuff. After his work capacity is increased, he then moves on to focus on increasing his skill set in a methodical manner - rings are introduces, snatch, handstands, double unders, etc...

They meet at the end of the year and do a crossfit games style hopper test. Who wins?
The first twin in your scenario would be WAY OFF track, even from Crossfit mainsite's prescription (see Start Here):

"If many or most of the exercises are relatively or completely unknown to you, then we recommend that you begin learning the movements for a month or two until you can either perform our common exercises or have substitutions worked out for those movements under development. This is a great place to begin for anyone with little or no experience with serious weightlifting or gymnastics."
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:27 PM   #70
Darrell E. White
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Re: Since You Guys Are Always Wondering About Sport Carry-Over

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Originally Posted by Moran Bentzur View Post
Bingo, try this scenerio:

Take two "identical twins" that don't have any sports background. They are novices at everything.
The first one gets to do main site WODs with scaling of course cuz he is a begginer.
The second gets a periodized plan. meaning, in the first three months he works almost solely on strength. as he becomes stronger, more emphasis is put on speed, conditioning, endurance using simple implements such as running, rowing, kettlebells, sleds, BW stuff. After his work capacity is increased, he then moves on to focus on increasing his skill set in a methodical manner - rings are introduces, snatch, handstands, double unders, etc...

They meet at the end of the year and do a crossfit games style hopper test. Who wins?
Depends on the second phase of twin #2 and what constitutes the program that let's you say "after his work capacity is increased." Are you using a program like Gym Jones or Mountain Athlete in phase 2? What you describe above sounds suspiciously like Twin one Main Page, Twin two SS then some other version of CF.

How about Twin one Main Page, Twin two any other program (go ahead and start with strengh) that does not smell the least bit like "functional movements performed at high intensity for time"? Maybe like that guy in MA who trains hockey players? Boyle, I think.

At a Crossfit competition in that scenario Twin one wins because he is able to handle the intensity of the test workouts. It's the intensity of Crossfit, whether it be Main Page or Affiliate or "some guy" who read the CFJ programming that separates the athletes when tested at skills both possess.

Your question does not seem to respond to my questions, but to play along Twin one Main Page for one year, Twin two with the equivalent of Starting Strength and then some non-Main Page program that increases work capacity across broad time and modal domains...well, we've seen that quite often out in the field. It depends entirely on how much work capacity twin two gains and how much strength ebbs away in phase 3, and how much strength Twin one gains over the year. Toss up. Tie.

But only because you train "work capacity" in twin two, otherwise Twin one wins a CF contest.

--bingo
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