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Old 10-03-2013, 02:50 PM   #31
Todd Neal
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
btw Todd, if you are looking for long term diet:

http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

Main idea is just to avoid processed food, gluten and seed oils.
Thanks, Dare. I should maybe point out that before this I was very close to paleo/low-carb, so it only took cutting a few more foods to get into ketosis. I've also been in and out of ketosis for the past month or so, this is just forcing me to wait for the adaptation.
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Old 10-03-2013, 08:00 PM   #32
Larry Bruce
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

If someone eats a high-fat meal there should be no insulin response but yet fat is stored. How?

Because you are still eating protein and will have an insulin response from that. Somewhat lower than from a carby meal, but you still have lots of insulin coursing through your veins afterwards.

Also body manufactures glucose from amino acids and other substrates including the TAG's glycerol backbone. So there will be some insulin in response to this, albeit at a low level. Secondly there are other hormones, like ASP that promote fat storage, not widely discussed.

So in short, you will store fat after a keto meal if you eat enough to exceed your energy requirements.

Agree the commercial North American diet sucks, but saying go Keto is the other side of the extreme.

If you keep carb intake within your ability to burn it off and store the remainder as glycogen, it will not convert to fat. If you exceed your ability to store it as glycogen because of rate or amount of consumption then you will convert carbs to fat. And protein to fat. And fat to fat. (I'm simplifying as the pathways involved are horrendously complex)

Anyway, it's all good fun. We understand a lot about the body but there is probably as much we don't understand. You can probably get cut doing keto, and have good performance if you are listening to people who have succeeded at that, typically by cycling carbs.

In any event, it's a blast. Have fun. Thanks for the kind words Bill!
Btw Bill, a wfs read you might enjoy: http://evolvinghealth.wordpress.com/...r-fat-storage/
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:30 AM   #33
Dare Vodusek
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Larry Bruce View Post

So in short, you will store fat after a keto meal if you eat enough to exceed your energy requirements.
One who blames insulin for fat storage is an ignorant fool, IMO.

There is a big difference in fat vs carb digestion. Fats are slowly digested while carbs are on a rush. Nobody in "sports" industry advises carbs in the morning (if you have a workout later in the day) and there is a reason for it. Carbs are only good right before, during or after a "heavy" workout. Why...because earlier in the day when we do our normal activity there is not need for it, because it would most likely overdo our energy needs and start to deposit fat. Unless we eat every few hours which is basicly madness and not needed. Instead, we just eat fats that keeps us fueled for hours from a single meal.

So in short. Eating meal with 1000 kcal worth of energy from fats or carbs is not the same thing. For a sedentary person fast will most likely do no fat deposits while carbs will.

There are a few exeptions to this thou, like SuperStarch and nuts. Or low GI carbs, but they have other health related issues that are not making it worth eating.
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:17 AM   #34
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
One who blames insulin for fat storage is an ignorant fool, IMO.

There is a big difference in fat vs carb digestion. Fats are slowly digested while carbs are on a rush. Nobody in "sports" industry advises carbs in the morning (if you have a workout later in the day) and there is a reason for it. Carbs are only good right before, during or after a "heavy" workout. Why...because earlier in the day when we do our normal activity there is not need for it, because it would most likely overdo our energy needs and start to deposit fat. Unless we eat every few hours which is basicly madness and not needed. Instead, we just eat fats that keeps us fueled for hours from a single meal.

So in short. Eating meal with 1000 kcal worth of energy from fats or carbs is not the same thing. For a sedentary person fast will most likely do no fat deposits while carbs will.

There are a few exeptions to this thou, like SuperStarch and nuts. Or low GI carbs, but they have other health related issues that are not making it worth eating.
I dunno about that....

Larry, thanks for the link. I have been trying to tell people insulin plays with fat storing hormones, but other hormones are actually responsible for the storage and desire to store. Admittedly, my only education on this has been a combined O chem / Biochem, and Clinical Physiology class. Past that I have about half a dozen or more upper level Ex. Sci. and performance nutrition courses.
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Old 10-04-2013, 07:45 AM   #35
Joseph Regan
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

One thing that i hate about a ketogenetic diet, is how easy your body can kick out of ketosis. Each person is different, but if you eat too much of certain things, your body kicks out of ketosis. That really frustrates me with this type of dieting. I have done it but was really strict and it really sucked.
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Old 10-04-2013, 09:52 AM   #36
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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One thing that i hate about a ketogenetic diet, is how easy your body can kick out of ketosis. Each person is different, but if you eat too much of certain things, your body kicks out of ketosis. That really frustrates me with this type of dieting. I have done it but was really strict and it really sucked.
Your body comes out of it easily because it isn't supposed to be in it in the first place.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:43 AM   #37
Todd Neal
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

Day 4: Feel good, albeit tired in the mornings. I'm assuming lack of adaptation, considering I sleep for 8+ hours. Also affects morning workouts, but again, hoping for improvement next week.

Larry, you said,
Quote:
"If you keep carb intake within your ability to burn it off and store the remainder as glycogen, it will not convert to fat. If you exceed your ability to store it as glycogen because of rate or amount of consumption then you will convert carbs to fat. And protein to fat. And fat to fat. (I'm simplifying as the pathways involved are horrendously complex)"
And I completely agree, but it's also why I'm doing a keto diet. My ability to store carb as glycogen is minimal unless I've just worked out, and my ability to burn it is inefficient. Maybe not your ability, but mine. So I do exactly what you said, keep carb intake within my ability to burn and store it. It just happens that it's under 50g. I mean, it makes sense that if I'm fat, then I'm storing more than I'm burning, right? So I keep cutting carbs until I burn more than I store, right?

Bill, I hear you about other hormones playing with fat storage, but can we affect any of them like we can affect insulin? (Legit question, I have no idea.)

And it's definitely too easy to get knocked out of ketosis. I don't know about not being in it in the first place though, it's a huge evolutionary advantage. If we had to subsist solely on glucose and had no method to make ketones, we'd die after a couple days without food. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a lot of cultures thrived because of this ability.
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Old 10-04-2013, 11:51 AM   #38
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

I am no expert Todd, but I suspect much of the problems we experience with hormones become due to A) being inactive and B) once you get fat a whole host of bad things start happening. Insulin in my humble opinion is catching a bad wrap because people know it and since diabetics have problems with it and they tend to be overweight......ergo insulin is evil. No study to back that up but it seems to be a common them. If keto helps you lose weight great, but I reserve the belief it isn't the only way.
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:05 PM   #39
Dare Vodusek
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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I dunno about that....
Why good would it be from carbs in the morning where there is no need for such a high energy source? Like white rice can flush glucose in blood at a very high rate and since our glycogen is most likely full and body is no need for it since we are no higly active...where will it go? Fat deposits. Same happens with fruit in the morning...

Imagine it like pouring nitro into car's tank while you driving 50mph in a traffic jam...useless waste of energy
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Old 10-04-2013, 12:11 PM   #40
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Why good would it be from carbs in the morning where there is no need for such a high energy source? Like white rice can flush glucose in blood at a very high rate and since our glycogen is most likely full and body is no need for it since we are no higly active...where will it go? Fat deposits. Same happens with fruit in the morning...

Imagine it like pouring nitro into car's tank while you driving 50mph in a traffic jam...useless waste of energy
What do you mean about "high energy source"?? Fat provided more energy per gram. Carbs don't turn into fat anymore than protein or fat does if you aren't overeating. You body stores sugars as glycogen if you aren't topped off on it. A cup of rice for breakfast must be why the Okinawans are so fat?? You don't store fat unless you overeat for the most part. I don't know where you get these ideas from. I am not saying type of calorie doesn't matter, but type is far less important to weight than number of calories is.
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