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Old 10-02-2013, 02:16 PM   #21
Michael Dries
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Todd Neal View Post
Update:
Counted cals from yesterday and I don't think I'm eating enough. Gotta up the protein and fat, only hit 1,200 cals. Feel fine, but I'm not going to be able to work out with on so little.
Why? Why not just track what you eat rather than shooting for calorie goals? Isn't the point of this to "free eat" according to your hunger levels?
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:26 PM   #22
Todd Neal
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Michael Dries View Post
Why? Why not just track what you eat rather than shooting for calorie goals? Isn't the point of this to "free eat" according to your hunger levels?
Good point. I started counting calories and already got ahead of myself. I suppose this is partially why I wasn't going to count calories in the first place. Too many assumptions.

...

OH! Maybe that's what Bill meant?
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:35 PM   #23
Larry Bruce
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

Firstly, I won't say don't make an effort to go VLC and into ketosis for an extended period because this is your thread.

I do fully support your efforts to improve your condition and health and wish you well. The reasons below are why I don't believe it is based on sound reasoning t; not because it is inherently invalid, but because there is nothing that requires it.

I'm not sure why you need your body to burn more fat than it normally does which is for about 80% of daily energy. If you're eating more fat it doesn't mean that more fat than usual will come out of your stores. Nor does fat require insulin to be stored. It stores very fine on it's own without an insulin response if you eat more than your body can use as it's digested. Also insulin doesn't cause glucose to be stored as fat if there is room in glycogen for storage.

Fat cells in fact have to burn a little glucose in order to store fat (they can store glucose as fat directly but that pathway is around 10x less efficient than the pathway for storing fat). So if they have a choice - meaning there is some fat in the vicinity - they are going to store that and burn the sugar to do so. But even if it is stored at some point, fat that is stored at one time will be burned at another time when you require the energy.

The benefit of not hungering often can also be achieved with normal eating - and reasonable food choices and portion control. It takes self control but after a while it's almost automatic. I don't diet, and I don't binge.

Is long-term ketosis healthy? You can survive but will you thrive? You seem like a young healthy and thoughtful person but I have concerns that you might be doing something that has little benefit but risks if taken too far. And if you suspect you are among the small percentage for whom gluten is a problem, there are many gluten-free carb alternatives obviously.

It seems to me to be an unnecessary battle you are about to wage. Who are your fighting it for?

I wish you well.

Last edited by Larry Bruce : 10-02-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:52 PM   #24
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Larry Bruce View Post
Firstly, I won't say don't make an effort to go VLC and into ketosis for an extended period because this is your thread.

I do fully support your efforts to improve your condition and health and wish you well. The reasons below are why I don't believe it is based on sound reasoning t; not because it is inherently invalid, but because there is nothing that requires it.

I'm not sure why you need your body to burn more fat than it normally does which is for about 80% of daily energy. If you're eating more fat it doesn't mean that more fat than usual will come out of your stores. Nor does fat require insulin to be stored. It stores very fine on it's own without an insulin response if you eat more than your body can use as it's digested. Also insulin doesn't cause glucose to be stored as fat if there is room in glycogen for storage.

Fat cells in fact have to burn a little glucose in order to store fat (they can store glucose as fat directly but that pathway is around 10x less efficient than the pathway for storing fat). So if they have a choice - meaning there is some fat in the vicinity - they are going to store that and burn the sugar to do so. But even if it is stored at some point, fat that is stored at one time will be burned at another time when you require the energy.

The benefit of not hungering often can also be achieved with normal eating - and reasonable food choices and portion control. It takes self control but after a while it's almost automatic. I don't diet, and I don't binge.

Is long-term ketosis healthy? You can survive but will you thrive? You seem like a young healthy and thoughtful person but I have concerns that you might be doing something that has little benefit but risks if taken too far. And if you suspect you are among the small percentage for whom gluten is a problem, there are many gluten-free carb alternatives obviously.

It seems to me to be an unnecessary battle you are about to wage. Who are your fighting it for?

I wish you well.


You have said what I try so hard to so well.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:32 AM   #25
Andrew N. Casey
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

after my workout today i am pretty sure i spent about 28 minutes in ketosis. it was terrible. a giant burrito fixed the problem
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:05 AM   #26
Dare Vodusek
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

I would suggest it to Todd to give it a try. People need to trial & error otherwise they always have a weird feeling left inside of them.

He needs to find out whats good for him and learn from experience.

But, Todd, do study about this a lot. LOTS of information about nutrition is bollocks and it takes a lot of time to filter the smart things out.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:12 AM   #27
Todd Neal
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Larry Bruce View Post
Nor does fat require insulin to be stored. It stores very fine on it's own without an insulin response if you eat more than your body can use as it's digested.

Also insulin doesn't cause glucose to be stored as fat if there is room in glycogen for storage.

Is long-term ketosis healthy? You can survive but will you thrive?
Hey Larry,

I appreciate the concern and the advice. I'd like to reply to a few points if I may, in the order above (also it's not my first thread, but that's fine):

- Triglyceride molecules (TAG) are too big to move across cell boundaries, so they need to first be hydrolyzed into free fatty acids. The enzyme that does this is lipoprotein lipase (LPL) which is upregulated by insulin. So while I agree that fat doesn't cause an insulin response, I disagree that insulin is unnecessary to the process. If it were unnecessary, Type-I diabetics wouldn't have an issue.

- I don't know what "room in glycogen" means, maybe you meant "room in the fat cell"? Please explain the process in which glucose gets stored, because everything I've seen looks like it requires insulin. From Wikipedia: "Insulin causes cells in the liver, skeletal muscles, and fat tissue to absorb glucose from the blood." But I've put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong.

- I suppose there's much to debate on the topic of whether or not ketosis is healthier than a western diet, but seeing the harm that the western diet has wreaked on the majority of the population, I'll take my chances with ketosis.

Again, I appreciate the concern, but I've looked into it a fair amount at this point, and I'll listen to highly trained medical professionals and scientists before I'll listen to someone I don't know in a forum. Thanks for the well-wishes.
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Last edited by Todd Neal : 10-03-2013 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 12:02 PM   #28
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Todd Neal View Post
Hey Larry,

I appreciate the concern and the advice. I'd like to reply to a few points if I may, in the order above (also it's not my first thread, but that's fine):

- Triglyceride molecules (TAG) are too big to move across cell boundaries, so they need to first be hydrolyzed into free fatty acids. The enzyme that does this is lipoprotein lipase (LPL) which is upregulated by insulin. So while I agree that fat doesn't cause an insulin response, I disagree that insulin is unnecessary to the process. If it were unnecessary, Type-I diabetics wouldn't have an issue.

- I don't know what "room in glycogen" means, maybe you meant "room in the fat cell"? Please explain the process in which glucose gets stored, because everything I've seen looks like it requires insulin. From Wikipedia: "Insulin causes cells in the liver, skeletal muscles, and fat tissue to absorb glucose from the blood." But I've put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong.

- I suppose there's much to debate on the topic of whether or not ketosis is healthier than a western diet, but seeing the harm that the western diet has wreaked on the majority of the population, I'll take my chances with ketosis.

Again, I appreciate the concern, but I've looked into it a fair amount at this point, and I'll listen to highly trained medical professionals and scientists before I'll listen to someone I don't know in a forum. Thanks for the well-wishes.
I think he means things can be moved into cells without insulin but when insulin comes out to play it moves things into the cell 10x-30x the rate. Type 1 diabetics have other issues beyond fat storage occurring. You are right in inferring that the body will die without insulin doing its job to ensure cells are being adequately fed which can't happen without it. Room for glycogen is referring capacity of the cell/liver to store it. You store X# of molecules of it for energy use and fat gets used too. They aren't the same thing. You have capacity for ATP on small levels too for the phosphocreatinine pathway. Many diets other than keto have shown to increase life expectancy and health. I believe you can't go wrong with a diet rich in whole foods. Macros to me are secondary to quality of food in most cases. At best keto increasing your life expectancy is theoretical and seemingly unlikely given the number of high carbohydrate eating populations that out live us by far. As I have often said, jumping to conclusion X based on test tube result Y isn't as intuitive as it may seem. Hence why I tend to side with the habits of large populations doing what I want to accomplish.
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Old 10-03-2013, 01:00 PM   #29
Todd Neal
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

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Originally Posted by Bill M. Hesse View Post
I think he means things can be moved into cells without insulin but when insulin comes out to play it moves things into the cell 10x-30x the rate. Type 1 diabetics have other issues beyond fat storage occurring. You are right in inferring that the body will die without insulin doing its job to ensure cells are being adequately fed which can't happen without it. Room for glycogen is referring capacity of the cell/liver to store it. You store X# of molecules of it for energy use and fat gets used too. They aren't the same thing. You have capacity for ATP on small levels too for the phosphocreatinine pathway. Many diets other than keto have shown to increase life expectancy and health. I believe you can't go wrong with a diet rich in whole foods. Macros to me are secondary to quality of food in most cases. At best keto increasing your life expectancy is theoretical and seemingly unlikely given the number of high carbohydrate eating populations that out live us by far. As I have often said, jumping to conclusion X based on test tube result Y isn't as intuitive as it may seem. Hence why I tend to side with the habits of large populations doing what I want to accomplish.
I don't expect to be in ketosis for the rest of my life, let's just clear that up. I'd kill for a good slice of pizza almost any day of the week. And tacos and burritos and all that jazz. There's no way I'm giving it up. Oh! and desserts. Love me some cookies and pie. But right now, my priority is to experiment and to see if I can a) improve performance at the box, and b) get cut.

I like the idea of following populations (that's how I approach cooking, actually), but the trouble, in my mind, is that we're all so genetically different. I figure higher-carb-eating populations maybe be leaning a little less towards insulin resistance than I am.
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Old 10-03-2013, 02:01 PM   #30
Dare Vodusek
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Re: 28 days in ketosis

btw Todd, if you are looking for long term diet:

http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

Main idea is just to avoid processed food, gluten and seed oils.
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