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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 01-17-2012, 12:45 PM   #11
Bryce Horrell
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Re: Training an obese woman

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
Strength endurance is fine. There's no need to train strength and strength endurance in different phases for the average person.

What people tend to think when they say they're 'stoking the metabolic fire' does not happen. There is a very small increase in calories burned from anaerobic-type workouts (<100 CAL). If you're going to build muscle, then that's more calories burned, but that's really hard to quantify, and then you start getting into that strange territory of building muscle and losing fat at the same time, which typically only happens with beginners.
I am not sure I follow you. Are we talking about strength endurance as in type IIa fiber types?

I was talking about muscular endurance as pertaining to high reps and low rest periods.

Here is what I have in my head.. By creating very lean tissue through hypertrophy, strength, and muscular endurance training her resting metabolism rate will be increased due to the amount of lean body tissue she has built. The resting metabolic rate is the largest contributor to energy expenditure (60%-75%) and so increasing lean tissue to increase metabolism seems like a logical approach.

I understand that the amount of calories burned increases with the frequency, intensity, and duration of the training program. I also understand that the highest amount of calories burned happens when a large person trains aerobically over a long period of time, which makes me think that muscular endurance (circut training) combined with the treadmill may be effective (near crossfit training).

I am assuming she has already created a calorie deficit due to her WeightWatchers diet. I believe that an aerobic/anaerobic-muscular endurance program could create a great calorie deficit and bring upon great results. Though I want to make sure she is getting enough protein and calories to build muscle. I think it would be best for me to monitor her calorie intake.



I know that most of you think I am overthinking but I am doing it for a good reason. I am scheduled to take my CSCS exam in april, I am going to the Navy reserve for hospital corpsman, and then I am leaving to college to study clinical exercise physiology. I adopted a meticulous approach to training due to my career choice.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:09 PM   #12
Andrew N. Casey
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Re: Training an obese woman

what are HER goals? what is HER motivation? this is about HER not about your methodology of training
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:16 PM   #13
Donald Lee
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Re: Training an obese woman

I've stated probably at least 5 times on this board that gaining 1 lb of skeletal muscle causes you to burn only an extra 6 CAL/day at rest.

Generally, you don't want to create a calorie deficit through exercise. Diet is where you want to cut most calories. Generally, exercise while dieting serves to stimulate the retention or gain of lean body mass, potentially increase mitochondrial density to improve fat oxidation (although I believe fat loss without exercise also may somewhat increase mitochondrial density in the sedentary), help with dietary compliance, and improve health. When you're going from sedentary to active and cutting calories, that can lead to bad outcomes, esp. if you do too much activity or cut too many calories. People with higher BF% can lose fat faster without detriment, while those with lower BF% have a much harder time.

The best thing you can do is to make sure that your exercise program supports her fat loss goals. This may mean that you need to make a certain day very easy because she's feeling worn out from a combination of dieting and not sleeping and the workout would make fat loss even more difficult that day.

Regarding being meticulous, do you think that every brilliant scientist/clinician is highly analytical about everything related to their work? Have you heard of an elevator speech or the 80/20 rule? I hope that as you learn more, you'll learn to simplify things. Exercise and diet for ordinary folks really isn't that complicated. Like I've said before, it gets more complicated the more advanced/lean you get. The more you learn the more you should be able to prescribe this stuff without thinking.

Let me give you an example from today. I was training a client and had her do supersets of Incline Pushups and DB Rows without rest, followed by a set of Full Pushups and heavier DB Rows to failure. She asked what my reasoning was afterwards. I told her that I did the easier supersets because I wanted to get more repetitions in and get some endurance work in, because she wasn't having a great workout day. And I wanted to get some strength work in at the end as well, but that sometimes on a bad day, strength work will kill your endurance afterwards. I didn't talk about working to failure at 65% > 1RM recruiting all motor units and talking about CNS fatigue and the interrelationship of stress factors, etc. None of that really crossed my mind, because it just sort of becomes second nature.

Last edited by Donald Lee : 01-17-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:21 PM   #14
Bryce Horrell
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Re: Training an obese woman

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Originally Posted by Andrew N. Casey View Post
what are HER goals? what is HER motivation? this is about HER not about your methodology of training
To lose weight and become healthy.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:32 PM   #15
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Re: Training an obese woman

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To lose weight and become healthy.
ok, then i recommend you find out more details from her. how does she define "healthy"? what is her goal weight, and why? her goal for clothes size? ask her to bring in a pic of how she hopes to look. and find out the deep motivation for her goals. what does she think she will gain from being that weight, size, look. and then ask her what she is willing to sacrifice to get there. i am only recommending this based on perosnal experience of training women, especially middle aged woman.

the biggest dangers in communication don't come when we know we disagree. the biggest problems are when we think we understand and agree but don't. if you and her aren't defining "healthy", "fit", "in shape", "toned" etc the same way then it will lead to frustration on both parts. get specific with the goals, the motivation, and what is willing to be sacrificed. find out, specifically, how she will know when she is successful.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:32 PM   #16
Donald Lee
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Re: Training an obese woman

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Originally Posted by Bryce Horrell View Post
I am not sure I follow you. Are we talking about strength endurance as in type IIa fiber types?

I was talking about muscular endurance as pertaining to high reps and low rest periods.
Muscular endurance is a made-up term. Strength endurance doesn't just involve Type IIA fibers. If you're involving more strength, then it'll involve more Type IIA. If you're involving less strength, then it'll involve more Type I. But, there's a spectrum of Type IIA fibers, and they fall between more or less oxidative.

Your example is just a workout protocol. It's one of many ways to train for strength endurance. I'm not sure what you're thinking about here, so I think the confusion is mutual.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:40 PM   #17
Donald Lee
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Re: Training an obese woman

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Originally Posted by Andrew N. Casey View Post
ok, then i recommend you find out more details from her. how does she define "healthy"? what is her goal weight, and why? her goal for clothes size? ask her to bring in a pic of how she hopes to look. and find out the deep motivation for her goals. what does she think she will gain from being that weight, size, look. and then ask her what she is willing to sacrifice to get there. i am only recommending this based on perosnal experience of training women, especially middle aged woman.

the biggest dangers in communication don't come when we know we disagree. the biggest problems are when we think we understand and agree but don't. if you and her aren't defining "healthy", "fit", "in shape", "toned" etc the same way then it will lead to frustration on both parts. get specific with the goals, the motivation, and what is willing to be sacrificed. find out, specifically, how she will know when she is successful.
I totally agree with this. I don't know if the obese client is middle aged, but young trainers often can't relate effectively with older clientele. There is much more to training than just knowledge of ex phys, anatomy, etc. We may have a PhD worth of exercise/diet knowledge, but since we're working with people, things usually don't work out ideally like we would like. I'm sure many physicians can relate to the difficulties of applying their medical knowledge with patients, which is why there is an increased emphasis on interpersonal communication with medical school applicants.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:45 PM   #18
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Training an obese woman

Skip the pulldowns with bands and just do some sort of body row. It might even have to be some sort of standing row with her body at an angle.

Barbell/Dumbbell row pretty much covers this. You can also load up a BB/DB row heavier than you might be able to than a BW row...then again if she is obese, she already has them weighted against her.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:49 PM   #19
Donald Lee
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Re: Training an obese woman

BTW. I recommend this book by Tom Venuto. It is also Oprah approved.

http://www.amazon.com/Body-Fat-Solut...2564204&sr=1-1 (WFS)

http://www.thebodyfatsolution.com/pd...lution_TOC.pdf (WFS)

I ignored most of the neurolinguistic programming stuff in the book, but it's a fairly approachable book, despite all the content it covers. It's a practical book with enough theory to support it.
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:11 PM   #20
Bryce Horrell
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Re: Training an obese woman

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
I've stated probably at least 5 times on this board that gaining 1 lb of skeletal muscle causes you to burn an extra 6 CAL/day at rest.

Generally, you don't want to create a calorie deficit through exercise. Diet is where you want to cut most calories. Generally, exercise while dieting serves to stimulate the retention or gain of lean body mass, potentially increase mitochondrial density to improve fat oxidation (although I believe fat loss without exercise also may somewhat increase mitochondrial density in the sedentary), help with dietary compliance, and improve health. When you're going from sedentary to active and cutting calories, that can lead to bad outcomes, esp. if you do too much activity or cut too many calories. People with higher BF% can lose fat faster without detriment, while those with lower BF% have a much harder time.

The best thing you can do is to make sure that your exercise program supports her fat loss goals. This may mean that you need to make a certain day very easy because she's feeling worn out from a combination of dieting and not sleeping and the workout would make fat loss even more difficult that day.

Regarding being meticulous, do you think that every brilliant scientist/clinician is highly analytical about everything related to their work? Have you heard of an elevator speech? I hope that as you learn more, you'll learn to simplify things. Exercise and diet for ordinary folks really isn't that complicated. Like I've said before, it gets more complicated the more advanced/lean you get.
How does exercising while dieting stimulate the gain of lean body mass? Its not that I dont believe you, I am just curious where you are coming from.

Now, you said that dieting while exercising is the best yet you said that cutting calories and exercising could lead to bad outcomes. When you say "dieting" do you mean eating healthy or cutting calories? It is a fact that she has cut calories due to her WeightWatchers diet and at this point I can not change her decision to use WeightWatchers. It is also a fact that she wants to get fit and so maybe it would be in her best interest if she did not cut calories drastically, which I dont think she did because WeightWatchers does not drastically cut your calories at first. Its more of a gradual decline, which makes me think that muscular endurance will be safe and effective as long as she has a safe calorie and protein intake. Though, by the time I get to the muscular endurance phase I would like to have her on a proper diet.


In regards to your question about being meticulous..

I am not too aware of the schooling habits of brilliant scientists. For me being meticulous is a great thing. I commonly analyze something, break it down, and dig deeper. For example... You said "although I believe fat loss without exercise also may somewhat increase mitochondrial density in the sedentary." My process would be to study that fact, look into why there is an increase mitochondrial density, and look into exactly how it happens. I hate to have any unknown variables in my logic and analyzing data helps me fill in the gaps.

Dont worry I dont talk about the deep aspects of science or physiology with my client. I keep it simple with her. As for myself? Simplicity will come when I have a very profound understanding of what I study. As for now I must dig deep and analyze everything.
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