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Old 10-18-2013, 03:34 AM   #211
Paulo Santos
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Re: Renegade Diet

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
I apologise if my question was not clear. Let me try to rephrase it.

The "idea" behind diets like Renegate diet, carb backloading, leangains, ... is to have "all" of your carbs in a post workout meal/s. The idea is to prepaire your body/glycogen for next day (together with optimum recovery/muscle rebuild process). So what you eat today after workout is there to prepaire yourself for tomorrow's workout. Thats why there are zero carbs recommended before workour.

But if today is my rest day and I had my "carb" meal yesterday I see no need for carbs today since I will not do a workout and my glycogen should be all filled up from yesterday. I dont need calories from carbs, fats are much better source of calories.

Unless the idea behind "rest day carbs" is to just put a bit of juice in our body in case we dont have full glycogen levels, just in case, to be sure and fully prepaired for next day when we do have a workout?
Personally, I don't buy into all that stuff about carb backloading. I buy into the post workout protein and carbs, but everything else is just about the calories. So after you meet the protein requirement, you can fill the rest in with carbs and/or fats. I just prefer to fill it with more carbs.
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:34 AM   #212
Michael Dries
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Re: Renegade Diet

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
But if today is my rest day and I had my "carb" meal yesterday I see no need for carbs today since I will not do a workout and my glycogen should be all filled up from yesterday. I dont need calories from carbs, fats are much better source of calories.

Unless the idea behind "rest day carbs" is to just put a bit of juice in our body in case we dont have full glycogen levels, just in case, to be sure and fully prepaired for next day when we do have a workout?
I disagree, from my own experience. I've been doing Wendler 5/3/1 boring but big for the last 6 months. Doing 5/3/1 of squat then 5x10 (or 5x8 or 5x5) of dead lift completely drains you. If I have any less than 150g of carbs after those type of work outs my body literally feels drained for the next few days. Walking up stairs is tiring, not soreness, I feel like I don't have the energy in my legs to actually walk up stairs. I've also been in a decent calorie deficit though as well so that might be part of the issue. But on days I eat more carbs post workout, while staying my calorie range, I feel better on following days.

What I don't understand is the whole, don't eat carbs preworkout idea, sure Renegate is a weight loss plan at it's surface but I find I perform much better if I have even a little (~30-50g) carb/fiber/protein about 2-3 hours before I lift.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:37 AM   #213
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Renegade Diet

30-50g is not really much Michael, thats less than half a cup of cooked white rice

I dont believe carbs are good for anything else than glycogen replenish and quick energy "backup", if you are a marathon runner or similar...triathlon maybe. But for "us", when majority of WODs are done in a few minutes, but certenly less than 1 hour I dont see much benefits of getting the extra energy in since our body have plenty of it stored, if we eat properly and have good recovery. OK, when its time for some competition, thas another story, but im talking normal days here.

Some info on insulin and carbs:

Quote:
Insulin is supposed to help with the expression of GLUT4 receptors on the surface of cells so that glucose can cross over the cell membrane and enter the interior of cells. But is insulin essential for glucose transport across cell membranes? No. For basal levels of serum glucose there is thought to be sufficient GLUT4 transporters to allow needed glucose to migrate across. This is why insulin is secreted from the beta cells of the pancreas, increasing its concentration in serum to supra-basal levels (the 'insulin spike' everyone refers to!), in response to elevated levels of glucose (such as after a high carb meal).

Basically it functions to increase the expression of GLUT4 receptors when there are excessive levels of glucose in the blood in order to clear it as quickly as possible and return serum glucose levels to normal.

It is also why elevated insulin has a number of other immediate effects in such circumstances. As well as increasing the expression of GLUT4, to get as much of the glucose into cells as possible (not just muscle cells but fat cells too), it also shuts down gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in the liver, increases both liver and muscle glycogenesis (if those repositories are not already full) and shuts down lipolysis but increases lipogenesis.

All of these actions are designed to 'use up' the excess glucose resulting from carbohydrate ingestion while inhibiting the creation or release of same from the liver and prevent fatty acids from being released from storage so that glucose can be oxidised as a priority.

As much as is feasible will be used to generate ATP in the cells. If there is no stimulus for further ATP generation (or it is inhibited by the presence of certain glycolytic intermediaries that block the action of certain glycolytic enzymes) then it will be synthesised into the storage form of glycogen. If glycogen stores are full, then it will be converted to fatty acids and then triglycerides and stored in adipocytes.
So if we had a monster carb meal after workout and next day is our rest day, glycogen "should" be full and excess of carbs will just store as fat. Remember, muscle glycogen cant be used for anything else than muscles and by "just moving around doing daily chords" most likely does not trigger the use of it. We still have some glycogen stored in Liver which can nicely take care of our daily needs.

At least I think it works that way, but im sure Darryl will post some link saying otherwise
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:54 PM   #214
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Renegade Diet

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
At least I think it works that way, but im sure Darryl will post some link saying otherwise
You're forgetting that liver glycogen is used to maintain blood glucose levels both in the fasting state and in the fed state if carbohydrate intake is insufficient to meet demand, as would be the case with a low carbohydrate diet. Once liver glycogen stores are depleted protein is diverted to energy production and so can not be used for repair or growth. And while this conversion of amino acids to glucose (gluconeogenesis) can maintain blood glucose levels at rest or during light exercise, glucose can not be produced in this way at a rate sufficient to fuel intense exercise. Therefore carbohydrate is required to provide an immediate source of energy, replenish both muscle and liver glycogen stores, and spare protein for repair and growth.

As for carbohydrate being stored as fat when glycogen stores are full, yes technically speaking that would happen if stores were full. However, our capacity to store carbohydrate as glycogen is significantly greater than our typical dietary intake, which is why you rarely find evidence of de novo lipogenesis making any real contribution to fat stores outside of overfeeding studies where subjects are fed huge amounts of simple sugars over a number of days.

Biochemistry. 5th edition - Section 30.3: Food Intake and Starvation Induce Metabolic Changes.

Substrate utilization during exercise in active people.
Edward F Coyle. Am J Clin Nutr 1995;61(suppl):968S-79S.


*All links wfs*
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Old 10-18-2013, 01:20 PM   #215
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Renegade Diet

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
However, our capacity to store carbohydrate as glycogen is significantly greater than our typical dietary intake, which is why you rarely find evidence of de novo lipogenesis making any real contribution to fat stores outside of overfeeding studies where subjects are fed huge amounts of simple sugars over a number of days.
What would be the definition of overfeeding, how many calories daily via carbs?
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #216
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Renegade Diet

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What would be the definition of overfeeding, how many calories daily via carbs?
Overfeeding studies conducted under metabolic ward conditions where subjects are overfed by as much as 50% more than daily energy requirements suggest that ingesting ≥500g of carbohydrate per day over a period of 5-7 days will result in a small increase in de novo lipogenesis (DNL). To put this into perspective, this is equivalent to consuming 500g of table sugar (sucrose) or ~1800g (4 lb) of cooked white rice every day for a week on top of your normal diet to produce a tiny amount of fat. Under real world conditions this level of overconsumption just isn't going to happen, or at least not by accident, which is why DNL is not considered to be a significant metabolic pathway for fat storage in humans.

Carbohydrate in Human Nutrition: Carbohydrate Food Intake and Energy Balance. (wfs)
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Old 10-25-2013, 06:10 AM   #217
Jayme Gruber
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Re: Renegade Diet

Now that I pretty much cut out carbs and limit them to dinner only, I'm really liking it. I look so forward to coming home after the gym and eating everything in sight.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:15 AM   #218
Jayme Gruber
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Re: Renegade Diet

So, I've leaned out pretty well (still have lower abdominal fat I want to lose but whatever) and I think it's time to try to put on some weight. At 5'10" 170lbs I'm just not strong enough at all. I'd like to put on 10lbs at least. I know a clean bulk isn't the easiest but the whole point of this diet is to stay lean.

I was going to just add a lot more protein to my diet, as well as some extra carbs. How does this look for a breakdown of meals:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/diary/jgruber412 WFS
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