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Old 03-21-2010, 11:30 AM   #71
Mike Mallory
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Everyone's different, and corrections vary hugely from person to person.

In a lot of people, the SI joint can pull out the atlas just like the atlas can pull out the SI joint.

Essentially, if you prepare the rest of your body to 'accept' the correction, you'll be much better off, without spending a bunch of time in the NUCCA office.

Most bodie's will get stuck in a position of slight deformity (how you looked before your first visit), and the muscles and joints are inclined to stay in that position once the tissue settled down into that state.

Make sure you're stretching out (and/or bodywork) the right muscles that will make your body more balanced, and then the correction will be more stable. Making sure your diet is good will help the whole thing a LOT!

If you don't hold your correction, you've got to look outside of NUCCA for results-

I know I keep beating a dead horse, but the folks at north shore smart bodies are the ones to go to.....They can identify any other stuff that may be stressing the atlas-

oh, and NUCCA is primarily frontal plane stuff. It doesn't correct lazy muscles
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:15 PM   #72
Jeff Evans
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Mike,

Wondering if I could get your input on a few things. First off, the adjustment I had after the new x-rays held great for a couple months, until I whacked my head on a concrete portion of a ceiling. Since then, I haven't been able to hold it, even after a few re-corrections. So, I'm ready to try your idea of P.T. But my question is, how could it work logistically? I mean, realistically, I have about a week after getting an adjustment before it's out again. So that's roughly 3 PT visits. Would I make enough progress in those 3 visits to hold it? Or do I need to start on the PT sooner (before getting adjusted)? If I do that, then wouldn't I be training for a musculoskeletal position that's about to change again? I'm just having a hard time envisioning how to integrate it in a way that's co-operative and not hostile to the correction.

Second, Greg (of upcspine.com) finally got back to me a while ago, regarding basically the same questions I had posted here recently (about repeatedly losing the adjustment) and he thought the problem was with my occlusal bite plane. He said I should work in concert with a TMJ dentist to address the problem, in concert with the upper cervical doc. Do you think there's any merit to this? If so, then should I work with all three at once?

Any insight is, as always, appreciated.
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Old 06-15-2010, 07:48 AM   #73
Mike Mallory
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Most PT's won't be on top of this stuff, I wouldn't even suggest a physical therapist at all. There are good ones out there, but so very few and far between.

You want to be able to look at other sturcutres that can drive upper cervical imbalance, because the atlas isn't at the top of the chain as far as importance goes. Could be anything above it, including ears, eyes, stress driving neck tension,, organs, etc..........The jaw and teeth are just one of many.

The reason why I keep drving you to North Shore Smart Bodies is because they can analyze this all at once, and then refer if necessary. They'll have a look at your head, neck, eyes, ears, bite, everything. You need this kind of holistic view of the whole body, otherwise everybody will just come up with their own reason as to why you can't hold a correction.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:13 AM   #74
Jeff Evans
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

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Most PT's won't be on top of this stuff, I wouldn't even suggest a physical therapist at all. There are good ones out there, but so very few and far between.

You want to be able to look at other sturcutres that can drive upper cervical imbalance, because the atlas isn't at the top of the chain as far as importance goes. Could be anything above it, including ears, eyes, stress driving neck tension,, organs, etc..........The jaw and teeth are just one of many.

The reason why I keep drving you to North Shore Smart Bodies is because they can analyze this all at once, and then refer if necessary. They'll have a look at your head, neck, eyes, ears, bite, everything. You need this kind of holistic view of the whole body, otherwise everybody will just come up with their own reason as to why you can't hold a correction.
Yeah, I was being a bit loose with the terminology there. By "PT," I had meant "going to North Shore Smart Bodies" .

I'll reach out to them today. In the meantime, should I just hold off on getting any more NUCCA work done? Thanks.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:14 AM   #75
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

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Yeah, I was being a bit loose with the terminology there. By "PT," I had meant "going to North Shore Smart Bodies" .

I'll reach out to them today. In the meantime, should I just hold off on getting any more NUCCA work done? Thanks.
good...

yeah I'd hold off......its just extra money if it isn't solving the problem
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Old 06-16-2010, 07:13 PM   #76
Steven Low
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Are your masseters and tempoarlis muscles chronically tight? Sore to the touch? Can't really palpate the pterygoid muscles so that's out of the question.

TMJ issues may be your problem.... since they lie in the same axis as the atlanto-occipital joint they can often be interrelated.

Heard some good things about PPRT in regards to TMJ issues so that may be an option if you're willing to pursue it wfs
http://www.theprrt.com/
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:41 PM   #77
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

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Are your masseters and tempoarlis muscles chronically tight? Sore to the touch? Can't really palpate the pterygoid muscles so that's out of the question.

TMJ issues may be your problem.... since they lie in the same axis as the atlanto-occipital joint they can often be interrelated.

Heard some good things about PPRT in regards to TMJ issues so that may be an option if you're willing to pursue it wfs
http://www.theprrt.com/
It's funny. All spring, in the weeks or so after I had been re-adjusted, I had noticed that when I bit together, my right teeth were touching noticeably earlier than my left ones (when my right teeth just came to the point of being clenched, my left ones still had a gap between top/bottom). I'd always thought "huh, that's interesting" but never really gave it any further thought. Just now as I was walking back to my apartment, an interesting realization hit me. Currently while I'm obviously out of alignment, as miserable as I am, at least both sides at least touch at nearly the same time when I bite down.

I'm now starting to think there is definitely something going on with the atlas and bite plane. And some perfunctory Google/PubMed searches are also reinforcing this belief (a lot of published stuff on TMJ in whiplash patients).

I'm trying to figure out how to check those muscles you mentioned by touch, but can't quite get it right from the diagrams. I've certainly never noticed anything consciously but that could obviously just be due to my body adapting to the discomfort over years.

In any case, I'll definitely be adding this observation to my notebook when I go to North Shore Smart Bodies. I actually have a routine dental cleaning scheduled next week. I can't decide whether to cancel it or have my dentist check out my mouth before/after an adjustment.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:16 PM   #78
Steven Low
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Masseter is on your mandible/jaw bone at the corner. When you clench you should be able to feel them tighten up.

Temporalis is basically in the spot you would rub your temples if you had a headache. You can feel them tighten up when you clench your jaw as well.

Try doing some massage to them if they're tight and see if they loosen up at all.


Also, the PRRT was to the digastic muscles. From my impression, what PRRT does is that it uses the stretch reflex to reciprocally inhibit the muscles that are chronically tight.

For example, the patellar tendon reflex when your doc hits and your foot kicks out. The stretch reflex makes teh quad contract, but opposingly the hamstring is reciprocally inhibited and looses up to accomondate teh stretch reflex.

So quick palpating action to the digastric which is a depressor of the jaw should reciprocally inhibit tight masseter, temporalis, and medial/lateral pterygoid muscles. If that's part of the TMJ/atlanto-occipital problem then yeah it may help significantly.

Something to think about. I haven't personally done it on anyone yet (for experiemental reasons) but I kinda want ot try because the theory is sound, but it sounds a bit whacky if you think about it. Especially if you watch their youtube videos on it.
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Old 06-19-2010, 01:25 PM   #79
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis



OK, pardon the language but I am now certifiably trippin' balls. Just after my last post, I started looking around for TMJ self-help stuff. I did a bit of massage on my masseters, which were indeed very tender to the touch, and also basically just held my mouth wide open for 8-10 seconds, for a few reps. Within literally minutes, I came back into adjustment. Shoulders/hips were level again and back tension decreased. It's been that way since.

Weirder still, my jaw position changed again, this time dramatically. Now, my bottom jaw has moved itself forward, so that when I bite, my front teeth touch first now (previously, my bottom incisors were impacting the roof of my mouth, i.e. underbite). This is basically the position my dentist said he wanted to move my jaw into via surgery. Now, assuming this sticks then the dental work I'll need to get done is very different (probably just some braces on the top to allow me to bite straight down). Right now it's a bit odd to chew since I basically have to force myself to underbite just to get my molars to contact.

Yesterday, I almost reached the point of being completely pain/cracking free in my back by working some more places on my face (primarily along the jaw) with the help of the trigger point workbook and Steven's descriptions. Haven't tried the "crazy" stuff yet, though.

Even though I can't begin to explain what's going on in my body, I can still marvel at how interconnected this stuff is. I pretty much file like I've been issued a new body. Will continue to monitor the situation for the next week or so to see what develops.
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Old 06-19-2010, 06:41 PM   #80
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Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Well, that was quick.

Keep us updated.
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