CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > In Sickness and In Health > Injuries
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Injuries Chronic & Acute

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-08-2009, 05:30 PM   #51
Jeff Evans
Member Jeff Evans is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Baltimore  MD
Posts: 296
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Neal and Kulsoom,

Definitely keep updating with your progress on continuing your routine in conjunction with the NUCCA adjustments. For myself, I've ceased Crossfit entirely since beginning the adjustments. As it is, I've had a difficult time holding them even with my normal day-to-day activities. In the past month I've had to get re-adjusted twice (within two weeks of each other). The difference it makes (when it's holding) is significant, to the point where I can tell if it's slipped since I feel very lethargic and feel a lot of discomfort in my back.

Just being in the state where my atlas is in the correct place is dramatic enough that I'll do just about anything to keep it that way. I may even have to stop doing yoga since that may have been a contributing factor in me losing the adjustments, despite the fact that I tried to be very careful with lateral neck flexion. It also may be something with my sleeping position, although I'm doing exactly what the doc says to do.

For now, I think I'm going to focus on cleaning up my diet, getting enough sleep, and keeping my head on straight for a while. Please keep me apprised of your progress, including on squats (I'm particularly interested in those). Thanks.
__________________
www.jeffevans.us (occasional bad language, otherwise w/fs)
Food log
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2009, 06:40 PM   #52
Aaron Gainer
Member Aaron Gainer is offline
 
Aaron Gainer's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Macomb  MI
Posts: 693
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

What worked for me: Moderate weight good mornings, lots of glute activation work, cable pullthroughs, and deadlifts. Along with that, did lots of massage and flexibility work.

Also changing my mattress to a firm memory foam(only 500 bucks) type has helped me sleep better and aided in the recovery process. Nice to wake up and not be in pain.
__________________
B.S. Physical Education and Health
NSCA C.S.C.S, USAW Level 1
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2009, 09:24 PM   #53
Kulsoom Ahmed
Member Kulsoom Ahmed is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Atlanta  GA
Posts: 113
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

I thought I would give an update today.

So far it has been about 11 visits. The month of November plan was I go twice a week, then go back to 1 visit per week. This week and last week I went twice a week because he said the office will be closed for 2 weeks and because one issue that had been hard to fix was a pelvic twist I have.

He said at first it was about 8 cm (I am not sure if it was mm or cm) and last week it finally came down to 3cm so he did not want me to go once a week. This past Monday it went to 0 for the first time. When I went today, I was still at 0 so I had no adjustment. my leg lengths have been equal for some time now.

Before this past Monday visit, I was better I think. Between Monday and today I did feel a bit tighter. Today after he found I was ok, he said I should have a massage before each of the two visits I have next week.. that I probably have muscle adhesion that could play a role in what I feel. Today he also felt my jaw muscles.. my right side was tighter than the left. he used an instrument to loosen those up (percussion) and told me not to chew gum haha. he said it was possible those muscles can contribute to neck tightness. In general he is positive about the prognosis, and not negative about me continuing to crossfit. He did once say, when discussing the pelvic twist issue, that being strong, working out could have helped it keep in place, and hence why it was harder to get rid of.

As for working out, I have been working out regularly since Sunday Nov 29, then I had my wisdom teeth removed, so I stopped. Then I went back to the gym this past Monday Dec 7th, but Dec 6th I warmed up at home with pullups, MU rows, ring holds, tripod stands (I started doing the gymnastics warmup). I also went this wed and today. Monday was an split jerk one rep max + metcon box jumps, med ball slams, Wed was 8 min amrap squat clean +jerk+burpees, box jumps, pullups. today starting strength BS, OHS and DL

Anyhow I hope this helps. I have not yet seen a CHEK practitioner yet but plan to schedule next week. That I hope will identify if how I move is contributing to any of my right side neck issue.

I did decide to stop un-assisted MU attempts with kipping. Nov 29th, I felt my upper back muscles tighten. that had not happened before, but at this point I figure I will just stop it altogether, I dont want to take any risks.. I am going to only focus on a strict muscle up attempt for now. but to prep for that working on the gymnastics warmup. to practice kip, I will stick to the bar, or an assisted ring kip.

It is possible things are different for me because I have an upper neck issue, v.s. feeling it in the lower back.

Jeff I hope you can continue activity. I remember the doctor saying a lot of things can make you lose an adjustment..
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 10:50 AM   #54
Neal Carlson
Member Neal Carlson is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dunellen  NJ
Posts: 43
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Good to hear from you again Jeff. I'm sorry that your adjustments don't seem to hold. I'm sure that must be frustrating.

So, a couple weeks ago I had another scan. SEMG - Measures Electrical Current of the Muscles; and Thermal Scan - Measures Temperature Differences. I don't have the results with me, and I don't recall exactly what the doctor said, but they were only so-so. He said that he is seeing progress - the imbalance around my neck is largely resolved, but it has increased in my lower back. He said that is normal and happens often. He also recommended that I continue to come twice a week, so I am until about the end of the year.

He also did a foot scan and said I'm very flat footed and recommends I get shoe insoles. I will do that soon, but haven't yet.

I've been going at Starting Strength consistently again. I'm back close to my previously highs. Still taking it quite slow, adding 5lbs to the squat, and only squatting heavy every other session. But I'm in no rush. I haven't had any bouts with bad back pain, but do go to bed using a heating pad a couple times a week when I feel the muscle tension.

Another comment is regarding food & hunger. I was doing SS in the summer/fall, prior to going to the NUCCA doc. I had several setbacks from back pain and when I started Crossfit for a while. Regardless, I reached my PRs in all the lifts in about Sept, prior to going to the NUCCA doc. I didn't gain much weight, didn't aim to at the time. But I was not particularly hungry. I ate a good 2500 calories a day, but wasn't necessarily hungry for more.

Now, since going to NUCCA, I am just beginning to reach my PRs again. But I'm always hungry. And my wife commented that the hunger started when I started going to the doctor. So I'm exercising the same amount, but I'm much hungrier. In the past couple weeks I started drinking at least a quart of milk a day, and am slowly gaining weight. But anyone experience increased hunger which corresponds to starting the NUCCA procedures?


Lastly, on my visit yesterday my leg lengths were 1/4" off - which was the worst they've been for several weeks. So the adjustment didn't hold as well. I started to brain storm what I might have done differently this week. Ah-ha! Must have been the sledding I did with my girls Sunday. No worries - there is no chance I'll give up sledding. It's well worth losing the adjustment for.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 03:09 PM   #55
Steven Low
Member Steven Low is offline
 
Steven Low's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: silver spring  maryland
Posts: 12,221
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Depending on how long you've had the flat feet you can reverse it somewhat at least. Basically, the muscles on the bottom layer of the foot get weak and decreased proprioception from shoes... then arches collapse.

See section 4 in this article for corrective measures for foot/ankle/lower limb wfs
http://www.eatmoveimprove.com/2009/1...-dysfunctions/

Your back pain may be helped with specific work from sections 3&4 too. If your back pain isn't resolving from just NUCCA that is.

Parts 1 on how it develops if you're interested beyond that little summary above.
__________________
Posts are NOT medical, training, nutrition info
Bodyweight Article, Overcoming Gravity Book
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2009, 08:14 PM   #56
Neal Carlson
Member Neal Carlson is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dunellen  NJ
Posts: 43
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Thanks Steven. You posted that article in another thread and I glanced through it and printed it. Amazing article from what I saw. Really fundamental and important stuff which should be common knowledge, distributed by all doctors, etc. But it isn't.

I'll be honest though, I haven't read it closely... I need to set aside the ... desire to read it and follow through with it.

Stuff like that, and this NUCCA thread, are what make this forum awesome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 04:36 PM   #57
Jeff Evans
Member Jeff Evans is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Baltimore  MD
Posts: 296
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

I lost my adjustment again, for the fourth or fifth time (I stopped counting). Ironically, after this latest incidence, there are no longer any doubts in my mind that this treatment is effective (will explain below). The only doubt I have is whether or not I'll be able to retain it long term.

Early last week (around Dec. 21), I started to think I was losing my adjustment again. I was feeling the pulling sensation along my left scapula again and the cracking/tension started. But everything looked fine in the mirror. By Tuesday evening (Dec. 22), tough, it was plain as day that my shoulders were off again (right one was visibly higher). I could also feel my leg position while laying down (right leg "shorter" by an inch or so). In addition, my right ear was about a half an inch lower than my left when my head was resting in what I thought was a "neutral" position. So it seemed the progression of symptoms happened over the course of a couple days whenever it was lost.

On Wednesday Dec. 23 I got it fixed in the morning, and felt almost immediate relief in my back, in addition to observing my perfectly level shoulders in the mirror. It seemed to hold for several days, and I felt better day-by-day. Last Sunday (Dec. 27), the cracking and discomfort in my upper back (my principal barometer of efficacy) was about 80% gone, for the first time I can remember in my adult life. Then, like a cruel joke, I woke up on Monday (Dec. 28) with the cracking/pulling again, and watched in dismay as my shoulders became unleveled. (I checked the mirror repeatedly throughout the day/evening). Over the next two days, I observed the same progression of signs (cracking, discomfort, shoulder unleveling) that I'd seen before when I lost the adjustment.

I have an appointment to get it fixed again on Jan. 4. So if anyone has tips on holding the adjustment I'd love to hear them. My conscious treatment of my head/neck has been impeccable (as far as I know), so it may be something happening while I sleep. I've been sleeping on my back or right side, with shoulder positioned squarely in line with head/torso (left side still hurts). I've even tried doing the tongue-on-roof-of-mouth thing just when sitting/walking around. The bottom line is, now that I've had a taste of being pain-free I'm willing to do basically anything to keep it. And unfortunately, for how helpful my doctor has been in starting me down what I think may be the final solution, he hasn't been able to help me maintain the corrections effectively (he just chastises me to "try harder" even though I'm not sure what else I can do). The interesting thing is that my first correction actually held the longest (around 2 months, from early Sep - mid Nov) despite me being much more physically active then.

By the way, in case anyone else is interested in the why/how this works, I finally found a page (w/fs) that explains things in a fairly scientific manner. In a nutshell, there are nerves (called spinocerebellar tracts [w/fs]) running along your upper cervical spine, which are part of the proprioceptive nervous system (w/fs). Part of their function is to sense joint position and tightness of muscles. If the atlas is out of alignment, it start impinging on them unevenly, thereby sending invalid information about muscular contraction and causing an [incorrect] compensation on the other side. A search through PubMed suggests that this information is fairly well known in the context of treating trauma (ex: a fracture in C1). So it's a bit surprising that it's considered "out there" in the context of dealing with a clearly diagnosed case of pelvic unleveling. Maybe it's because of the association of the various upper cervical techniques with "chiropractic", which invites a stigma from mainstream medicine, despite the fact that they don't seem to agree on very much with "straight" chiropractors (my doctor calls himself a "spinal engineer"). But I digress.
__________________
www.jeffevans.us (occasional bad language, otherwise w/fs)
Food log
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 07:52 PM   #58
Steven Low
Member Steven Low is offline
 
Steven Low's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: silver spring  maryland
Posts: 12,221
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Jeff,

If it's becoming unstable you may have to start strengthening the muscles to hold it in the correct position.

I'm not exactly sure what that would entail but likely you'd probably knock yourself out again until you can get it fixed, and hopefully the muscles strengthen back to normal.

I'm gonna read up on this links you provided. Maybe see if I can find some insight.
__________________
Posts are NOT medical, training, nutrition info
Bodyweight Article, Overcoming Gravity Book
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2009, 08:59 PM   #59
Jeff Evans
Member Jeff Evans is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Baltimore  MD
Posts: 296
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

Thanks a lot Steven. BTW, another page that has quite a bit of information on the anatomy: here (w/fs)
__________________
www.jeffevans.us (occasional bad language, otherwise w/fs)
Food log
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2009, 10:18 AM   #60
Mike Mallory
Member Mike Mallory is offline
 
Mike Mallory's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Denver  CO
Posts: 694
Re: Ongoing back problems: a new hypothesis

I think I've said it before, but it would be best to hire a professional on this one......theres a lot of structures in that are and a lot of reason why it 'goes out'.....I've spent years looking into it. It's a very biologically important structure.

on a very superficial level, you need to find out what is tight/weak in all these muscles;

hyoid group
suboccipital group
Stenocleidomastoid
scalenes
Muscles of mastication
lower cervical extensors
levator scapula
upper traps

If you find that, then you can start to balance it out......The atlas likes balanced posture in the cervical spine. Start there-

And BTW, that link you shared is just one of the theories of why NUCCA works, there are others!
__________________
Foam rollers suck!

Last edited by Mike Mallory : 12-30-2009 at 10:23 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Self Help for Low Back Problems Rick West Injuries 9 11-28-2008 12:00 PM
Back problems Maddie Melnick Fitness 6 07-02-2008 09:23 AM
Sarah's CrossFit Success Story...ongoing of course Sarah Childs Testimonials 14 05-22-2007 08:44 AM
Back problems Ryan Norman Injuries 8 11-26-2005 04:11 AM
Back problems Paul Symes Injuries 3 01-31-2005 04:59 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.