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Old 11-20-2008, 09:22 PM   #471
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Robert Wolf View Post
This is where I just call BS on your science background. I've run a lab, I've done bench work from synthetic chemistry, to lipid analysis to QA/QC of protein purification. You are trying to create this sense that you have some secret insight into the topic...and you do not. You are missing the whole damn point. If the "scientific method" of which you speak is so powerful, produce some better results.

I never made any such inference. I love how on the one hand you disdain the need for any studies, yet you champion the paleo diet, a diet which comes from rigorous science, both biochemical, anthropological and nutritional. I never claimed I had some secret insight, I've never said "I'm wrong your right" I've never degraded anyone. I've simply stated that to beat our critics we need to beat them at their own game. I'll gladly discuss that 5k challenge, You find you're sub par VO2 runner and I'll find my above average VO2 runner, and we'll see who wins the race.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:24 PM   #472
Derek Maffett
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
I just think it's sad this thread as devolved into a "us vs them" argument. This is why the Soviets were so far ahead of us for so long. Instead of trying to prove which way was best and fighting, they looked at everything, and stole what worked best.
Isn't that the idea of Crossfit? Take whatever works and use it without necessarily trying to prove conclusively? Doesn't Greg Glassman stand on results and tweak the program to constantly make it better?
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:30 PM   #473
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
Isn't that the idea of Crossfit? Take whatever works and use it without necessarily trying to prove conclusively? Doesn't Greg Glassman stand on results and tweak the program to constantly make it better?
It's the idea of many programs. But what I'm referring to about the Soviet model is this. In the Soviet Union there was no scientists vs coaches, vs doctors. They all worked together to create the best program they could. I'm not a researcher by trade, i'm a coach, I make my living in the trenches doing application not theory. But half of what I do now comes from theory I've learned in the class and from other coaches AND researchers. I want us to embrace studies so we can show people that CF really will better prepare you for a sport you've never tried, better than any other program. I believe it to be the best GPP, we all do, but we make claims for which we don't have any real proof to back it up. Here's a classic one we always use

An athlete at another sport will do poorly at CF. A CF athlete will do well at their sport,pick a sport neither have done, and the CF will win.

We base that bold statement off of what? If we want to silence guys like Poliquin, than lets have his athletes do CF, our athletes do his workouts, and have them try new physical challenges see who does better at all three. I'd bet it was the CF athlete, but until we actually do it, it's a guess at best. Thats what I want for CF.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 10:11 PM   #474
Derek Maffett
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

A lot of the doctors and scientists in America seem to be far from cooperating with CF or other such, but I see what you mean. (Though Robb Wolf is an example of a scientist/researcher working with Crossfit).

I'm just fine with scientific research, provided it isn't messed up and misleading like many "research" studies are. Like David said, there are many difficulties in making the studies, but if anyone (such as yourself) is willing to do so, then great.

However, the tests would be secondary. They would only help to convince other people and possibly help to advance Crossfit. I would not expect Greg Glassman to stop the work he's already been doing while waiting for the test results and I believe that the anecdotal evidence is plenty to indicate how well Crossfit works. The tests are icing on the metaphorical cake (and since this is metaphorical, we'll also assume that the cake is made out of nuts, meat, and vegetables).
 
Old 11-20-2008, 10:13 PM   #475
Robert Wolf
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
It's the idea of many programs. But what I'm referring to about the Soviet model is this. In the Soviet Union there was no scientists vs coaches, vs doctors. They all worked together to create the best program they could. I'm not a researcher by trade, i'm a coach, I make my living in the trenches doing application not theory. But half of what I do now comes from theory I've learned in the class and from other coaches AND researchers. I want us to embrace studies so we can show people that CF really will better prepare you for a sport you've never tried, better than any other program. I believe it to be the best GPP, we all do, but we make claims for which we don't have any real proof to back it up. Here's a classic one we always use

An athlete at another sport will do poorly at CF. A CF athlete will do well at their sport,pick a sport neither have done, and the CF will win.

We base that bold statement off of what? If we want to silence guys like Poliquin, than lets have his athletes do CF, our athletes do his workouts, and have them try new physical challenges see who does better at all three. I'd bet it was the CF athlete, but until we actually do it, it's a guess at best. Thats what I want for CF.
This offer has been out for a long time. Coordinating it would be a buggar but certainly doable. Honestly though Phil, I don't know that it would quiet the critics a whit.

There appear to be a number of folks in the academic side of things. I'm for opening a thread for discussing potential research topics...but it would be hard for me to stray too far from outcome based, performance oriented topics. We could, with fairly little effort, have an archive of prospective research topics. these could be be picked through by prospective researchers both in and out of the community.

If y'all wan't research, lets do it. I'm not a big one for sitting around on my thumb. I still however, do not think it will change much of what we are doing.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 10:14 PM   #476
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
A lot of the doctors and scientists in America seem to be far from cooperating with CF or other such, but I see what you mean. (Though Robb Wolf is an example of a scientist/researcher working with Crossfit).

I'm just fine with scientific research, provided it isn't messed up and misleading like many "research" studies are. Like David said, there are many difficulties in making the studies, but if anyone (such as yourself) is willing to do so, then great.

However, the tests would be secondary. They would only help to convince other people and possibly help to advance Crossfit. I would not expect Greg Glassman to stop the work he's already been doing while waiting for the test results and I believe that the anecdotal evidence is plenty to indicate how well Crossfit works. The tests are icing on the metaphorical cake (and since this is metaphorical, we'll also assume that the cake is made out of nuts, meat, and vegetables).
I never claimed they weren't secondary. Sport science has always lead from the gym and field first, and the lab second.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 10:16 PM   #477
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Robert Wolf View Post
This offer has been out for a long time. Coordinating it would be a buggar but certainly doable. Honestly though Phil, I don't know that it would quiet the critics a whit.

There appear to be a number of folks in the academic side of things. I'm for opening a thread for discussing potential research topics...but it would be hard for me to stray too far from outcome based, performance oriented topics. We could, with fairly little effort, have an archive of prospective research topics. these could be be picked through by prospective researchers both in and out of the community.

If y'all wan't research, lets do it. I'm not a big one for sitting around on my thumb. I still however, do not think it will change much of what we are doing.
Well if it changes peoples minds, or helps improve CF i'm all for it.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 10:28 PM   #478
Joey Powell
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

I think he wants someone to care about his opinions about protocols without backing up his own protocols with results for himself or trainees.

I say if you have a better way...lead us to the promised land.

Mostly what I see is watered down CF with designated days to do certain protocols.

Time to get into the labratory ...

Last edited by Joey Powell : 11-20-2008 at 10:32 PM.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 10:31 PM   #479
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Joey Powell View Post
I think he wants someone to care about his opinions about protocals without backing up his own protocols with results for himself or trainees.

I say if you have a better way...lead us to the promised land.

Mostly what I see is watered down CF with designated days to do certain protocols.

Time to get into the labratory ...
Who are you referring to?
 
Old 11-20-2008, 11:28 PM   #480
Gavin Harrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
Who are you referring to?
Otto has a very crossfit based program, which is pretty much as Joey described.
 
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