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Old 11-20-2008, 09:00 PM   #461
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

Wow this thread just won't die
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:06 PM   #462
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Robert Wolf View Post
christian-

Now, with regards to Phil, when he first jumped into this it was to the tune of "you guys need science...you don't know what you are doing".

Rob, I'd like to see the actual posting by me where I said that. From the very beginning I stated that if we want to silence critics like Epley, Poliquin, etc, and accept greater mainstream acceptance, than we must hold ourselves to the same high standard that all good program must eventually do so. The Soviet programs are so trusted and valued, because they have been validated in the lab, in the gym, and on the competition field. The Soviets didn't see acadamia and athletics as mutually exclusive, why should we?
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:09 PM   #463
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by John Filippini View Post
The problem is not so much with science, but with the funding. The current diet recommendations came out of poorly conducted studies a generation or more ago that the food industry jumped all over and marketed everywhere they could, making it "common knowledge". Now that "knowledge" is so far entrenched in the public view that it'll take an order of magnitude more work to debunk -- the sort of work people like Michael Pollan are starting to make headway with.

The problem isn't with the scientific method and peer reviewed research. The current diet model is the result of a significant departure from the scientific method. Someone did a poor study and rather than question it or even try to reproduce it, we allowed the people with more money to wave it around like a banner. There are scientific studies that have shown the efficacy of paleo-type diets, but they never got noticed by the public because there wasn't either (1) enough money to promote them or (2) a sheer volume of work done in a peer reviewed setting to make it impossible to ignore.
This same "science" has also brought us the paleo diet, Olympic lifting, plyometrics, and the resurgence of whole food diets. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:11 PM   #464
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
You do realize that Phillip will now be complaining about how that statement also has to be dissected with extensive research projects?

Phillip, if you are affiliated with a college (did I get that wrong), then you're in a better position than most of us are in to conduct the studies you want.
I actually am planning on doing some studies about CF style training
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:12 PM   #465
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Pat McElhone View Post
Not science, specifically exercise science geared toward improving athletic performance. Yes, I think actual scientific studies have contributed zero to improving athletes. Studies like Tabata's may have inspired coaches to use them, but ultimately it was the observations of coaches and athletes on a specific exercise. No great coaches quote studies, they talk about lessons learned coaching athletes.
Well go ask everyone who ever competed against the Soviets, they will tell you differently.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:12 PM   #466
Derek Maffett
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
Wow this thread just won't die
Okay, that sounds really hypocritical. When did you switch sides from arguing (with incredible stamina, I won't lie) to being a suffering man who just wants the arguments to stop?

As it is, Brandon is still arguing. And judging by your second post right after the quoted one, it seems you're not quite through yet, either.

Edit: Okay, a lot more posts. So you don't seem to be done yet at all.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:15 PM   #467
Derek Maffett
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
I actually am planning on doing some studies about CF style training
Good. Tell us how they go.

Brandon, you're free to lend him a hand, you know. It's exactly what you've been asking for, after all, right? Desho? Cool.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:15 PM   #468
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Robert Wolf View Post
Chris, you are a genius...Phil, I think you are loosing your direction.


Nein, Schizen, and that is called the WOD. OR a Olifting meet...or whatever you want to test. Phil, you are trying to impose a reductionist approach to something which is vastly complex...complex to a degree that outcome based science and experimentation is what works best. this is what bedeviled food research...its the three body problem in calculus...tweak one variable, change all other variables. The most expedient way to solve this problem of performance is stopwatch, a means of measuring distance and a clip-board to record the above information in the form of RESULTS. Someone may in fact cut thier MS or Phd. teeth on some of this at some point. At present YOU are the only one who appears to want to stop the whole program so we can prove the obvious. ALSO...and I will address this more later, you keep saying that this focused, reductionist analysis will yield great insights into how to build better programs and by extension better performers. DO IT. All eyes are on you amigo...field a team for the crossfit games. I'll personally pay you $5K if you do it. Put up or shut up.



So we can just peese our time away? This will influence our coaching HOW? If you read the velo piece you see that work capacity is king...but hey, testing all this tripe will keep several ex-phys labs funded for a while, no?



Chris, you are a genius.



I could also stick a carrot in my fanny and dance a gig...but it will be effective for improving performance in a similar manner to the above. People need to: Get stronger, get efficient and build engine to run faster (as an example). The point of a race, last I checked, was getting across the finish line faster than you did last time or faster than everyone else.

In your example above, I'm to guess the Chinese Olifting coaches have thrown their collective hands in the air in joy that they have a better understainding of RFP? This is absolute rubbish, the studies of today are simply VERIFYING what coaches already know. Is it interesting? sure. Is it valuable? Maybe....but it seldom changes anything of merit.



Robert-
This is exactly it and it appears to be beyond Phil to grasp that WOD results are as or more valuable than ANY other measure we could apply to the problem. Sometimes the obvious is anything but.


Phil, you have just encapsulated the daily process of Crossfit.com. Congrats.


Rigorous testing?!? Are you serious? I tweak variables, I see results...I can track these in my gym to a degree that is tough to reach when I do QA/QC for chemical assays, GC-MS and a host of other validation heavy chemistry. It really is not getting through to you that the WOD results are as valid of outcomes as anything else...and it appears to be beyond belief that they are in fact SUPERIOR to what you are proposing for tests. Amazing.


Phil-The scientific process is all around you and you are completely blind to it. This is not distrust of the scientific process, this is incredulity that you are for real...IMO you are a Trol. How you respond to this post will tell me whether I'm right or wrong. BTW-You are now my subject in a scientific experiment...this is what this stuff looks like.

Ahhh...this dead horsie just needs a little more love...Phil, there are several thousand data points collected daily. This is equivalent to a vast pool of combinatorial chemistry reaction vessels, cooking up the goods. This is like an open market which is the most efficient method of uncovering the truth when we hang our hats on performance.


Exactly.


Nothing Phil, you have your 5K challenge...produce results.

That's ok I'll let the hundreds of Div I athletes I've produced be enough for me.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:16 PM   #469
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
Good. Tell us how they go.

Brandon, you're free to lend him a hand, you know. It's exactly what you've been asking for, after all, right?
I probably won't start them till late next year. I'm doing a study on basketball players, then MMA and then firefighters.
 
Old 11-20-2008, 09:17 PM   #470
Phillip Garrison
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Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit

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Originally Posted by Derek Maffett View Post
Okay, that sounds really hypocritical. When did you switch sides from arguing (with incredible stamina, I won't lie) to being a suffering man who just wants the arguments to stop?

As it is, Brandon is still arguing. And judging by your second post right after the quoted one, it seems you're not quite through yet, either.

Edit: Okay, a lot more posts. So you don't seem to be done yet at all.
I just think it's sad this thread as devolved into a "us vs them" argument. This is why the Soviets were so far ahead of us for so long. Instead of trying to prove which way was best and fighting, they looked at everything, and stole what worked best.
 
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