CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > Community > CrossPit
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

CrossPit For discussing MMA, UFC, Pride fighting, and other martial arts

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-24-2010, 08:02 PM   #1
Sean Ploskina
Member Sean Ploskina is offline
 
Sean Ploskina's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Norfolk  VA
Posts: 42
When to defend yourself?

This came up due to an incident involving a friend in Philly a week ago. At what point do you defend youself?

Wait until your aggressor attacks? Pre-emptive?

Does the number of attackers change things?

What about if you are armed? Does carrying a gun make you wait longer?

__________________
I hope that someday we will be able to put away our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people- Jack handy
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2010, 09:26 PM   #2
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: When to defend yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Ploskina View Post
This came up due to an incident involving a friend in Philly a week ago. At what point do you defend youself?

Wait until your aggressor attacks? Pre-emptive?

Does the number of attackers change things?

What about if you are armed? Does carrying a gun make you wait longer?

Legally, you are only allowed to use force in response to a physical threat, and directly proportional to the threat. If you pre-emptively shoot someone who's yelling at you from a safe distance (for instance), you'd better hope you have a really good lawyer. Unless you're attacked in your own home, you should also be prepared to explain why you didn't/couldn't just run away or otherwise avoid the incident. The difference between a self-defense acquittal and an assault conviction depends on whether you're able to convince a group of *people who weren't there* that you acted in genuine fear for your safety.

From a practical standpoint, avoidance is almost always the least risky alternative. No matter how good you are, any physical encounter involves risk. The other guy could be meaner than you, or could have a weapon, or could be able to bring down a world of legal hurt on you no matter what the actual situation. (I'd wouldn't advise getting in a fight with an off-duty police officer, for instance.) Avoid the situation, and you avoid the risk.

It's hard to draw conclusions without knowing the details of the actual incident. But I'd say that if you have time to think about whether you need to defend yourself, you probably don't. The martial arts talk about the "critical distance," the point of no return where *something* is going to happen. Until you get there -- and what that distance is depends on stuff like the availability of weapons -- you can decide to disengage, and probably should. Once the critical distance is reached, you have to act.

But if you conclude that you need to defend yourself, don't hold back. Go in like an avenging angel with the Wrath of God at his back and worry about legalities later. If you're outnumbered, your best chance is to hurt Bad Guy #1 so badly that the rest decide to be elsewhere.

Katherine

Disclaimer: Lots of martial arts experience, but not a lawyer or a street fighter. Free advice is worth what you paid for it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 04:00 AM   #3
Wayne Riddle
Member Wayne Riddle is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lewiston  ME
Posts: 1,779
Re: When to defend yourself?

That is a lot of area to cover. First do some research into Tony Blauer and his 3 D's: Detect, Defuse, and Defend. Those are the 3 stages of self-defense you need to be aware of from the start.

Does the number of attackers change things? Yes it will.

Does carrying a firearm make you wait longer? You'll need to know the laws of where you to live to know when you can deploy a firearm in self-defense.

As for the pre-emptive strike, i.e. the sucker punch, if I've gone through the detect and defuse stages and my warning alarms are saying "the attack is coming", which could be picked up through body language and such, I have no problems making the first move. I also know that I might need to justify my actions not only to myself but in a court of law too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 06:21 AM   #4
Matt Thacker
Affiliate Matt Thacker is offline
 
Matt Thacker's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Youngsville  NC
Posts: 418
Re: When to defend yourself?

In the great State of NC, where I teach the law of deady for as it relates to a citizen with a concealed handgun permit...the law is that force used must be equivanlent to the force being used against you..and only the minimum amount of force necessary to counter the threat posed by a hostile agressor. The facts and circumstances of each situation dictate the amount of force that may be legally excused by the claim of self-defense. Certainly the number of hostile agressors is a factor. Other factors include whether or not the person claiming self-defense was an instigator or agressor who voluntarily provoked, entered or continued the conflict. In all cases, in NC, if retreat is possible it is always the best option...with a few exceptions. The laws of justified self-defense are very hard to explain and vary greatly from state to state. In the end, depending on the outcome you may face criminal or civil liabilty. As one poster already mentioned, aviodance is always the best policy.

Changing gears from a legal to a tactical point-of-view...I would always consider striking pre-emptively if there were enough pre-attack cues in place. Of course tactical considerations have as many complexities as legal considerations!

The views expressed above are not a substitute for legal and/or tactical training.
__________________
www.crossfitwakeforest.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 01:09 PM   #5
Jason Peacock
Member Jason Peacock is offline
 
Jason Peacock's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 563
Re: When to defend yourself?

More totally naive advice - if retreat/defusing don't work, and you think it's going to be a quick fight, i.e. dude at the bar just wants to show that he's the big man, then take the blow (roll with it) and go submissive.

Yeah, it sucks to not engage him (her?) but for all the legal reasons outlined above, it's much simpler to be the fall guy if that helps to end the fight faster.

OTOH, if it's a dark alley and you fear for your life and retreat/defusing don't work - then fight for your life, lay into them like FGB, and don't stop until they (or you) run away.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 04:32 PM   #6
George Nesrallah
Member George Nesrallah is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa  Ontario
Posts: 363
Re: When to defend yourself?

I've unfortunately had to engage in fights and I only have 2 basic rules I stick to. 1. If I can't get out of the situation and I have to fight, I basically gain full mount on them and wait for security/police to arrive; throw no punches. 2. If nobody is going to come and I have to fight I try to end it quickly, whether it be getting mount and reigning down on them, choking them out, etc.... .
__________________
" Quit your b****ing and fight your way through it ! "
Starting weight: 314; current weight: 254; Goal: 200
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 05:43 PM   #7
Wayne Riddle
Member Wayne Riddle is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lewiston  ME
Posts: 1,779
Re: When to defend yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Peacock View Post
More totally naive advice - if retreat/defusing don't work, and you think it's going to be a quick fight, i.e. dude at the bar just wants to show that he's the big man, then take the blow (roll with it) and go submissive.
He hits you, you fall back, head crashes into the bar. if you are lucky just some stitches. If unlucky hospital or death. If he just wanted to show you how big he is then you playing submissive before blows start should have done the trick (along with choice speech). if he still tosses the punch then it is going beyond this. I've got a son and like hell will someone hurt that in turn could effect my son.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 05:46 PM   #8
Wayne Riddle
Member Wayne Riddle is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lewiston  ME
Posts: 1,779
Re: When to defend yourself?

Only issue I have with grappling is if he has a buddy or two. I don't want to be trying to choke someone out while his friends are beating on my head. I rather be on my feet where I can move if needed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 06:05 PM   #9
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: When to defend yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
He hits you, you fall back, head crashes into the bar. if you are lucky just some stitches. If unlucky hospital or death. If he just wanted to show you how big he is then you playing submissive before blows start should have done the trick (along with choice speech). if he still tosses the punch then it is going beyond this. I've got a son and like hell will someone hurt that in turn could effect my son.
If you've got a son, what are you doing facing down drunks in a bar in the first place? Sorry, but the vast majority of civilian fights can be avoided by making better decisions about where and how to spend one's time.

(By civilians I mean people who are not bouncers, police officers or others who deal with violent people as part of their job and presumably receive appropriate training and support.)

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2010, 06:28 PM   #10
Wayne Riddle
Member Wayne Riddle is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lewiston  ME
Posts: 1,779
Re: When to defend yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
If you've got a son, what are you doing facing down drunks in a bar in the first place? Sorry, but the vast majority of civilian fights can be avoided by making better decisions about where and how to spend one's time.
I wouldn't be. He gave a scenario and I gave how I responded to said scenario. Part of the detection phase is avoiding areas that tend to be a source of trouble. The type of bars that attract the person that likes to show how tough he is are ones I avoid. I don't run into those types at the local brew pub.

But lets change this around a bit. A buddy gets drunk in one of these bars, doesn't have money for a taxi and asks me to come give him a ride. I go into the bar, get him, and as we are walking out someone decides they want to play tough guy with me. If I can't talk my way out (I'll be talking very loudly that I don't want to fight to make sure I attract as much attention as possible) and he decides he wants to fight I will use as little force as possible to make sure I am safe.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Training to defend one's or training to fight in the cage Jeff Gentry CrossPit 7 03-25-2006 01:52 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.