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Old 07-18-2010, 05:28 PM   #11
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Am I the Only One?

I know what kata's are , I was referring to the competitions. I don't go to a martial arts school to learn seld discipline, I go there to learn how to gfight so I can defeat someone with superior physical abilities. Thats it. If a martial art can't teach you that, then it is not a martial art.

CF, football, wrestliing, weightlifting, rugby, etc all teach self discipline as part of being good at the activity, though none explicitly teach it.


"As for the nut kicking, eye gouging, etc, of course you cant do that stuff when you spar. You can only train in a capacity that simulates it. Its like when cops do active shooter training. They can only simulate the scenario as closely as possible to the real thing. "

If you can't do it in sparring in traditional martial arts, why bring up the fact you can't do it in MMA?
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:30 PM   #12
Mark E. Wallace
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Re: Am I the Only One?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schechterly View Post
Ignore something on a forum? There's always points to be argued, my friend.
No there's not. Not not not.
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Old 07-18-2010, 10:43 PM   #13
John Stone
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Re: Am I the Only One?

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Can you kick people in the nuts, eye gouge, fish hook, throat strike in MMA? No you can't. I'm not saying MMA doesn't have it's value in tersting the martial arts. But it's not a realistic test of the self denfense/combative value of MA's.

That is one of the more nonsensical replies I've read recently. In what "martial art" are those moves taught? You've basically taken a thread discussing relative perceived values of different styles of martial arts training, and said "well if you can't kick people in the nuts, it's a worthless combat technique."

Sigh.

Last edited by John Stone : 07-18-2010 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 07-18-2010, 11:16 PM   #14
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Am I the Only One?

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Originally Posted by John Stone View Post
That is one of the more nonsensical replies I've read recently. In what "martial art" are those moves taught? You've basically taken a thread discussing relative perceived values of different styles of martial arts training, and said "well if you can't kick people in the nuts, it's a worthless combat technique."
I've personally seen eye gouges and throat strikes taught by very senior aikido instructors, and aikido isn't generally known for the brutality of its techniques.

No, of course you don't practice such techniques at full speed without gear, but knowing what opportunities exist is useful even if your intentions are more peaceful.

Arguments about specific arts aside, the need for rules is a very valid criticism of MMA or any other sport-oriented test of martial arts skill. That's actually the reason why most aikido styles don't include sparring: ichi go, ichi e. (One life, one meeting.) The Founder of aikido believed that competition bred an un-serious attitude toward combat encounters.

Katherine
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Old 07-19-2010, 04:32 AM   #15
Andrew D White
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Re: Am I the Only One?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
I've personally seen eye gouges and throat strikes taught by very senior aikido instructors, and aikido isn't generally known for the brutality of its techniques.

No, of course you don't practice such techniques at full speed without gear, but knowing what opportunities exist is useful even if your intentions are more peaceful.

Arguments about specific arts aside, the need for rules is a very valid criticism of MMA or any other sport-oriented test of martial arts skill. That's actually the reason why most aikido styles don't include sparring: ichi go, ichi e. (One life, one meeting.) The Founder of aikido believed that competition bred an un-serious attitude toward combat encounters.

Katherine
Hi Katherine,
I agree with you and O Sensei on this (as I probably should... )

Let's face it. Everyone is not cut out to be a serious fighter. Most of the population can only stand on the sidelines, but imitation is still the most sincere form of flattery. Perhaps the second most sincere in our time is viewership and purchasing of merchandise.
I'm sure I could be labeled a poseur since I'm involved in Crossfit at age 37 and really have no hope of being on a podium at the games.
Everyone interested in MMA can't pay the toll of endless training, conditioning, and the eventual disfigurement that comes with live practice or matches. And, even if they did, their talent would never match their dreams except in very rare persons. So, they buy a tshirt and order the pay per view because that's as close as they can get to it.
We all have dreams and we all have compromises.
I will say that I see a stark difference between the people who follow a warrior ethos through training (scaling back to meet the limitations of mma style fights when/if they do fight in front of an audience) and those who simply train for competition in the ring/octagon with mma televised glory as their ultimate goal.
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Old 07-19-2010, 06:24 AM   #16
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Am I the Only One?

I thought judo and BJJ/GJJ and boxing/ muay thia settled the argument about the effectiveness of martial arts that don't include live sparring?
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Old 07-19-2010, 07:22 AM   #17
Sean Dunston
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Re: Am I the Only One?

I'm surprised the "get in my guard!" video has not been linked yet...

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Old 07-19-2010, 08:43 AM   #18
John Stone
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Re: Am I the Only One?

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
No, of course you don't practice such techniques at full speed without gear, but knowing what opportunities exist is useful even if your intentions are more peaceful.

Katherine

Eye gouges and fish-hooks et cetera are not "techniques." They do not need to be trained, and they are equally available to anyone in a "real" fight.

So with that a given, the argument I replied to makes no sense. The argument is really "A Muay Thai / Wrestler can't win a fight against some guy on the street that knows how to kick people in the nuts." It's the height of ridiculousness.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:18 AM   #19
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Am I the Only One?

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Eye gouges and fish-hooks et cetera are not "techniques." They do not need to be trained, and they are equally available to anyone in a "real" fight.
I disagree. I think any strike benefits from practice in actually hitting whatever the target is. There's a big difference between the eye itself and the cheekbone or brow ridge.

Katherine
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:00 AM   #20
Matthew Payne
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Re: Am I the Only One?

Yes it is equally silly to think anyone will just know when and how to eye gouge, groin kick etc.... vital targets. Sure everyone knows what they are but simulating these in sparring can and is done. In fact in Krav Maga you certainly do kick to groin in sparring, punch to the groin as another example. It is controlled and not obviously 100%.
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