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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 11-23-2010, 08:37 PM   #101
David Meverden
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Tamara Cohen View Post
David's math is correct. Spend some time on the SS Forums. You are adding 5 lbs per squat workout for as long as you can. At some point, you may only be adding 2 lbs per workout. Now, you have to understand that the novice phase may be 2 months or it may be 9 months. And, you have to eat. Period. So, is a 360 lb gain unrealistic? Yes, because you wouldn't be able to add 5 lbs per workout for that long. I am adding 5 lbs per workout right now (2 squat workouts per week), and Rip thinks I will maybe get another 4 weeks out of it before I have to adjust.
The linear period does slow, and there is a ramp up of 2-4 weeks, but otherwise what I said was accurate for at least 2 to 3 months IF the trainee is eating a lot (I'm talking gaining 10 or 15+ lbs a month). "We have a kid that has recently gained 48 pounds in 10 weeks. Squat has gone from 145 x 5 to 310 x 5 x 3". That guy is 6' 1" tall and started out at like 165 lbs bodyweight. I don't know if 145 was his max 3x5 at the start (it was probably higher, 175 or something to allow for a ramp up). I think some of Rips more genetically gifted novices have gotten up to the 400 range in squats just on a novice linear progression, but I don't have a link on hand (Tamara?). It doesn't work as well on the other lifts as it does on squats, but it still produces solid gains there.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 08:44 PM   #102
Jeff Martin
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

Been playing with adding strength to CrossFit for awhile, and have a little anecdotal stuff to add here. When I tried to add SS, probably four years ago, to CF it was a disaster. Rip could have told me that, and probably saved me a bunch of heartache.

I read Westside Book of Methods played around with the ideas there and had some success. Went to Louie's first seminar last December and have had great success. My first two lab rats, were my oldest boy and his training partner. Jake, 185#, just squatted 500, Connor, 160#'s just squatted 405. Significantly they were both able to make progress on their metcons. Jake's Fran moved from 4:00 to under 3:00 and Connor's from 2:30 to 2:14.

I started using Westside Methods affiliate wide in May. Everyone has seen significant gains, across the board. My favorite is a young lady whose deadlift was under 200 at the start and pulled 305 last month, at a bodyweight of 110. Runner up is a 65 year old that couldn't tie his shoes a year ago and pulled 375 last month.

On the subject of kids, we began using Westside methods in our teen lifting class last January. Some of my favorite successes were. A 17 year old who showed up at our gym with a back squat of 135 and a deadlift of 185. We returned him to his track team with a squat of 280 and a 355 dead. He won the high jump in the California State Meet with a 7 foot jump. Yes you can get explosive doing this stuff. We have a 14 year old, 175#, who pulled 400# and 390 x 3. Another 14 year old, 145#, who just pulled 300 tonight and has more in him. My middle boy who is 17 and 145#, just squatted 305 and pulled 385. He also power cleaned 230, snatched 175 and standing box jumped 54". The kids above can do all the "Girls" as rx'd.

We have had great success with the Westside Method, we keep getting stronger with out feeling beat up or worn out.
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Last edited by Jeff Martin : 11-23-2010 at 08:48 PM.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 09:15 PM   #103
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by Erich Anderson View Post
so by your math, 5lbs per workout x 3 workouts a week x 4 weeks a month x 3-6 months =180 to 360 lb increase in a squat in 3-6 months? I'm not trying to call you out but that seems downright unrealistic. could you please clarify? I'd be very interested to hear if other people have witnessed such gains
A few things to keep in mind. First, the SS starting weight is lower than the individual's 1RM. So some of the "gains" from the starting weight will simply be catching up to where the individual already was. Second, SS is designed for novices, who by definition are generally starting from a very low base. And finally, weight gain is not unusual when following the program, so some of the strength gains are simply what might be expected as the person gets bigger.

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Old 11-23-2010, 10:06 PM   #104
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Sort of a change of direction here, but this is probably information all can use instead of beating this dead horse with more arguing...

On box squatting, can you comment a little bit on "ideal box depth" as it relates to crossfit/olympic movements? I watched Dave Tate's hourlong segment on box squats and he was advocating going to parallel.

If i want to increase power on my olympic lifts, is it better to squat to a parallel box or should i work my way down to a 10'' box?


To everyone else - I've started Chris's template (which fits on ONE, read ONE, sheet of paper) and will leave comments in 8 weeks when it is done. In terms of strength, i definitely qualify as a beginner.
Erich, in your case box squatting is more of a variant of the lift than the prime lift. With that said, parallel or just below is best. When my template calls for a free squat you should Olympic squat (just an FYI).
 
Old 11-23-2010, 10:08 PM   #105
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
I know this has been going in circles for 10 pages, and you're probably getting frustrated with this crowd, but the conflict still bugs me, so I feel compelled to post. Maybe I just need numbers to reassure me because I've seen the numbers for lots of beginners on Rips program (rip almost specializes in bulking up 135# skinny kids), but very few numbers for skinny beginners on a westside program. The OP has some but we don't know where the kid started, and aside from his young age, the numbers are pretty good but not mind blowing.

A novice on rips program, pretty much by definition, can squat 3 times a week and add 5 lbs to the bar every workout. If they are eating a lot they can keep that up for months. Why shouldn't they want to do that? Will they add more than 15 lbs to the squat bar a week doing a westside template? Since they CAN recover sufficiently to add weight to their squat in 48 hours why wouldn't they want to add more weight 48 hours later? That's my hangup. I just don't see how that could be a wrong move, but again, maybe it's because I haven't seen many examples of westside used on beginners. Or maybe it's because Rips program demands a bunch of weight gain to continue linear gains and westside doesn't? I don't know. I'm trying to learn and expand my training horizons.

Thanks for any info.



Thanks for that link! That is a good summation.
For me it is comparative results. If you can get more why would you NOT want to do that? I want to train the best, most efficient way possible to achieve my goal. If someone else doesn't, well then that is their choice.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 10:09 PM   #106
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Having initially drank the CF Kool-Aid and switched to a strength biased program, I can see how much of a turn off it was to others when all I talked about was how superior CrossFit was. Same concept applies to this thread.
Then don't read. Problem solved...
 
Old 11-23-2010, 10:10 PM   #107
Erich Anderson
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

thanks chris
 
Old 11-23-2010, 10:11 PM   #108
Chris Mason
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Chris-

What would your recommend for young novice lifters doing the WSB stuff who are in need of serious mass gain? Reps up to 6s, like Louis recommends? Even more? GOMAD?
A high caloric intake and the inclusion of higher reps with assistance work. I am, in fact, working on a Westside hybrid bodybuilding program as we speak.
 
Old 11-23-2010, 10:16 PM   #109
James White
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

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Then don't read. Problem solved...
I was interested in learning more about the program, but your apparent obsession with it (and multiple posts about the subject) makes me less interested. Just sayin'.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:49 PM   #110
Erich Anderson
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Re: For those that argue Westside is only for the advanced...

James - I think its the fact that he's the only representative we have on the forums from Westside (please correct me if I'm wrong). I think we're lucky to have someone representing this system that we can bug with questions. I don't see any of the other big names (Rip, Dr. Pose running, Louie, etc) answering questions regularly on the forums.

Full disclosure - I've bugged him a lot. For the most part, he responds.
 
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