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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 09-01-2009, 11:55 PM   #11
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

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I'd suggest either CF mainpage or CFSB, then spend whatever extra training time you have on gymnastics. IMO, once you have a good baseline strength and conditioning program, skill work gives a better return on the time invested. Especially if your sport is something as skill-intensive as gymnastics.
Actually, on further reflection, let me phrase this a bit more strongly. One of the advantages of CF is that it doesn't take a huge amount of time. In the context of sports, that means that athletes can spend less time working on conditioning, and more time working on skills. Unless your sport is Crossfit -- which it's not -- doubling up on Crossfit workouts is a waste of time and energy that you could be using to get good at your sport.

Katherine
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Old 09-02-2009, 12:08 AM   #12
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

I have recently come across the NAIGC and I think I will be able to compete under the alum category. First meet is probably in 2 months. Which isn't much time at all to make routines or get new skills.

I figure I will try to separate my training time and conditioning time so I can condition harder. So far I seem to gas out during training time which means I'm not eating enough before workout. It also lets me hit the strength and conditioning harder.

I figure on my off days, I will do some tabata something for metcon. These are so they can help me lean out besides getting a lot stricter on my nutritional intake. I figure 2-3 a week possibly or possibly GymnasticBodies "Power-focused" circuits (that include rest periods but focus on generating/sustaining power over a short time). One modality per day.

As far as I'm concerned, I will be not giving a damn about my BS/DL numbers, metcon time, or mile time. Part of getting gains in gymnastics/weighlifting is your recovery. I may go to an occasional CF wod at a CF gym but more than likely that would just take away from training time.

Train your dipping that you can do the dips as a result of working BW leveraged or weighted dips so that BW-only dips are so easy you can do 50. Steve Low managed to pop off 40 after working max weighted dips.

If you have all this extra time to CF/CFE/CFSB, you could be doing gymnastics conditioning or basics instead even if you aren't at the gym. Get a pair of rings and parallettes and a bar and work stuff besides HS.

12% BF is merely a matter of tweaking your nutritional. Nothing remarkedly incredible about 12%BF especially when your in HS aged.

However, if you want to do CF/CFE/CFSB as your focus besides these goals...well actually I think your coach should be pist. I would. Unless of course you're hopeless as a gymnast and he just gives up. You got this extra time and you're farting around worrying about a 300lb BS and 7m mile? Especially if you end up getting into underrecovery for some reason.

Then again, I only consider myself CF-ish at best. I like OL/heavy lifting(not PL). I like hard sucky metcons. I dislike sucking at modalities like gymnastics and OL so I could be more broad time modality blah-blah-blah. My Helen and Fran time are decent and I could probably get the longer WODS better if I focused on my CF weaknesses...but again, who cares, I don't.
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Old 09-02-2009, 01:43 PM   #13
Dan Andrews
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

While i definitely understand the mentality behind working more gymnastics basics outside of the gym, doing gymnastics more then 2 and a half hours - 3 hours a day is going to be overkill. I don't know whens the last time you guys tried doing gymnastics skills and routines straight for roughly 3 hours 6 days a week, but your hands eventually tear and your palms go numb. I dont think the amount of time spent with gymnastics is an issue, i think I'm going to be putting in a very solid amount of time already. As far as not Crossfiting or lifting while doing gymnastics, that's purely just not an option, the only reason I have ANY gymnastic potential is because of the strength and conditioning I have gained through those activities, and also the reason i continue to make marked gains.

Thanks for all the input, will definitely keep it all in mind.
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Old 09-02-2009, 01:50 PM   #14
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

How good do you want to get? How many hours do people at that level put in?

Katherine
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:22 PM   #15
Dan Andrews
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

I'm not looking to become Olympic or even a collegiate gymnast, maybe make the varsity team at my high school, but that's about it. A typical Freshmen/ Junior varsity team practices 1 and a half to 2 hours a day 6 days a week and a varsity team about 3 hours a day 6 days a week, so I'm already practicing almost an hour a day more than most kids at my level.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:15 PM   #16
Ted Apollo
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

i think some information about your lift #'s and what stage you are in will help determine your training approach. I say that because if you are still a novice lifter then a program like CFSB wouldn't be as effective since it is an intermediate program. If you are still a novice you should hit the weights hard in the offseason along with your sport skills training. I think you would benefit a lot as a athlete to make linear gains in strength for as long as you can. The other suggestion by steven about running 400m intervals is an excellent idea mixed with short distance sprinting.

if you are already in the intermediate stage then i agree with steven and katherine. Following blair's programming advice is usually a good idea.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:24 PM   #17
Dan Andrews
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

I'm definitely a intermediate lifter, leaning on advanced with a couple lifts.

I weigh 170 and am 6 foot tall

1RM's
Bench Press- 235
SP- 140
Deadlift- 300
Back Squat- 235
Front squat- 195
Power Clean- 165

For some reason my back squat is atrocious compared to most my other lifts, I can't figure out why, It's not like I never squat, I squat fairly often. There's something seriously wrong when you bench as much as you squat haha.

Before i started CF and gymnastics i was religiously following a weight training program for 2 years which got me in exercise in general where i made quite a bit of strength gains, not looking to go back though.

Last edited by Dan Andrews : 09-02-2009 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:18 PM   #18
Steven Low
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

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While i definitely understand the mentality behind working more gymnastics basics outside of the gym, doing gymnastics more then 2 and a half hours - 3 hours a day is going to be overkill. I don't know whens the last time you guys tried doing gymnastics skills and routines straight for roughly 3 hours 6 days a week, but your hands eventually tear and your palms go numb. I dont think the amount of time spent with gymnastics is an issue, i think I'm going to be putting in a very solid amount of time already. As far as not Crossfiting or lifting while doing gymnastics, that's purely just not an option, the only reason I have ANY gymnastic potential is because of the strength and conditioning I have gained through those activities, and also the reason i continue to make marked gains.

Thanks for all the input, will definitely keep it all in mind.
Well there's a couple problems:

Your hands won't tear if you use grips correctly, especially for hbar/rings. Only real threat of tearing is on PBars and unless you're learning underbar stuff like moy & variations, peach, giants, etc. you shouldn't be ripping at all.

18 hours is nothing... we were putting in 4.5 hour practices 5-6 times a week when I was 8-11 years old. Gymnastics is more than "learning skills" which is what high school and college relegate most of their practice time to. The basics such as drilling body positions, handstands, active flexibility, etc. are all vastly important and overlooked in developing proper gymnastics progressions.

People can come in and learn A and sometimes B level skills easily without much fundamentals. But when you try to get them learning most B and C skills, they start having massive problems even with huge amounts of practice time. Their fundamentals are often very bad which hinder progress, and the athlete needs to go back to basic drills to work their way back up properly.

Based on what you said above you are developing your gymnastics skills the wrong way. You should be focusing on body positions, handstands, flexibility/active flexibility and all the core elements on each of the apparatus -- round offs, handsprings, support/upper/under swings on pbars, circles/loops/scissors/etc. on phorse, basic rings swings, giants/kip/etc. for hbar/etc. Your ability to attain skills through strength and conditioning is incorrect and will limit your progress in the future.

I don't mind integrating weights with bodyweight progressions (I would do this myself if I got back into gymnastics). But these need to be supplementary to training -- not a primary focus of it. Metabolic ability should be very rarely trained because it's not used that often. Primary importance on strength leads to muscling of technique which gives you problems learning any type of swinging skills. Thus, supplementary S&C should be focused on rings strength, core positions, and active flexibility. Basic focus in training focuses mostly on rebounding/explosive and swinging work.

What level are you competing? Or what level is your individual events at?
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Last edited by Steven Low : 09-02-2009 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:58 PM   #19
Dan Andrews
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

Alright let me stop you before we go any further. I am not practicing gymnastics incorrectly. You are making some false assumptions. The vast amount of my time spent practicing gymnastics are all very basic skills that coincidentally improve flexibility. Because I, like you, believe that having the basics down is essential to further skill development, as do my coaches. The vast amount of my time spent in the gym is on Pbars and Rings. On pbars which is my best event the vast majority of my time is spent on swing hands, which as you know is working a couple extremely basic and fundamental parts of a pbar routine. Having an efficient swing and form in it and holding a handstand on pbars are two very key things that at the moment are my focus. I'm also working my basic back-off, because a spinning dismount is key to a routine.

On rings im still very novice at the event. And am practicing your basic swing to invert, and playing around with inlocates and dislocates and presses to shoulder stand and handstand and skin the cats. All very basic things, one thing im sure as hell doing is working the basics and fundamentals, that much is fact.

As far as my level goes, i cant give you some official scale or anything. Im on the junior varsity team at my school, my tricks are things such as back uprise straddle cuts, swing hands, shoulder stands and rolls, front uprises. On rings nothing extremely notable, close to an iron cross, can do back levers, shoulder stands, and still working things like dislocates and innlocates. Definitely not a very good gymnast, but one thing I can tell you for sure, is that in 5 months i've made more progress then anyone ive ever met or heard of. You'll notice most gymnasts spend years upon years with the sport, as you stated for yourself, I'm the exact opposite I have not had the luxury of doing it since i was an adolescent.

As far as your belief that working with weights and high intensity metcons and gaining strength in that respect not being a good idea and not transferring very much to gymnastics, I would say you are just flat out wrong, I'm living proof that training with weights among other things can vastly accelerate your ability to get skills and the fundamentals down in gymnastics.

That being said, I would agree with you if you were talking to a 8 year old starting the sport, but in regards to a 17 year old that has one more year with the sport, I would say a very different prescription is in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Well there's a couple problems:

Your hands won't tear if you use grips correctly, especially for hbar/rings. Only real threat of tearing is on PBars and unless you're learning underbar stuff like moy & variations, peach, giants, etc. you shouldn't be ripping at all.

18 hours is nothing... we were putting in 4.5 hour practices 5-6 times a week when I was 8-11 years old. Gymnastics is more than "learning skills" which is what high school and college relegate most of their practice time to. The basics such as drilling body positions, handstands, active flexibility, etc. are all vastly important and overlooked in developing proper gymnastics progressions.
18 hours is nothing.... Well, as much as i appreciate the condescending tone, it sure is something for all the kids on the team. And, I use my grips correctly along with chalk on rings, and you still tear, its almost inevitable, you will eventually tear.

Last edited by Dan Andrews : 09-02-2009 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:11 PM   #20
Michael Ingley
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Re: Progression on all fronts ?

CFE doesent really help with any of those goals

the sub 7 mile could come with like a month of jogging.
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