Why kip during pull-ups and chin-ups? - Page 2

Mike ODonnell · 11-02-2006, 05:29 AM

Kipping is all about the hip power and stretch reflex of the lats. Takes flexibility to do it.

I'd rather do a snatch than a squat-curl-upright press.

Erik Reckdenwald · 11-02-2006, 11:33 AM

This is along the same lines as Mike's post...

Power = work/time
work (kipping pullup) = work (strict form pullup)
->assuming full ROM, since you are moving your center of gravity the same distance

You will be able to perform more full reps in less time with kipping than without. Most "real life" scenarios require movements that activate multiple muscle groups, so it is important to incorporate complex movements (ie kipping pullups or cleans) rather than all isolation movements.

Kipping pullups are to strict pullups as split jerks are to shoulder press.

Dolph Geurds · 11-02-2006, 05:08 PM

Look at it this way. It is all about functional strength, if you were being chased and needed to pull yourself up to escape would you use strict form or haul ••• up and over. It took me some practice to kip, but once you got it you will never use strict form again.

Mike Minium · 11-03-2006, 09:35 AM

This classic thread on the very same subject should answer most--if not all--of your questions regarding the kipping pull-up:

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/22/8991.html

It's a ten-page goldmine of info.

Mike

Todd Ebert · 11-03-2006, 06:38 PM

Thanks for all of the great input, especially the reference to the "classic thread".

Even after reading through much of this material, I can't say that I am convinced that kipping pull ups are superior to the strict version. I have personally experienced such good progression and strength development over the last 5 years from doing strict weighted pull-ups that I have a hard time believing that changing them would be a good idea. I do believe that multi-joint exercises are always superior to isolation exercises. But it seems to me that in this case, the generation of momentum from the hips is done under very little load and, therefore, contributes little to the overall stress on the body and actually reduces the stress by giving the body a "head start" by generating some momentum before the back and biceps need to do their work.

I imagine that practicing strict chins would translate into better performance when doing kipped chins (assuming the kipping technique is learned first). Can the same be said in reverse? Would performing nothing but kipped chins translate into better performance on strict chins? Some of the information I've read would suggest the answer might be "no". I read somewhere in the "classic thread" that an individual could perform 25 to 30 kipped pullups, but only about 3 strict pullups. This suggests to me that this person became very proficient in the kipping technique, but did not necessarily get very strong in the process.

I also found it interesting that someone noted that the Marines no longer allow kipping during testing and require strict pull-ups. This suggests to me that they feel that the strict version is superior in either developing or demonstrating the necessary strength in the movement.

I don't doubt that you guys know your stuff and seem to have lots of good information to back up your arguments - more than I've provided in mine. In this particular point, however, I have a difficult time believing that the kip is better than the strict version.

Adam Rooke · 11-04-2006, 04:16 AM

Totally agree with your line of thinking Todd. I started Crossfit 3 or so months ago with a very healthy base of dead hang numbers, 18. As I am primarily a climber, I ignored kipping as deadhang pull-ups would have a much bigger crossover into climbing. Since I have started crossfit, my dead hang numbers have gone up to 27 and my climbing grade from V6 to V8, big improvement.

However, lately the pull-ups have become the limiting factor in metcon WOD's. I taught myself to kip a few days ago and intend to start using it in some where high numbers of pull-ups are called for.

I also agree with you about the strength issue. Having a large number of dead hang pull-ups is much more useful than the same number of kipping ones. Although, for someone starting out it is much more helpful to be knocking off large numbers of kipping pull-ups than hanging hopelessly at the bottom of a bar. There is a time and a place for both types.

In the end, it depends what your goal is. When I started it was more dead hang pull-ups, so I did them. Know they have reached a level I am happy with I want to improve my overall conditioning, so kipping is the way forward for me.

Neither one is superior to the other, no matter what some people may lead you to believe, try to experiment with both types.

Lincoln Brigham · 11-04-2006, 08:16 AM

I imagine that practicing strict chins would translate into better performance when doing kipped chins (assuming the kipping technique is learned first). Can the same be said in reverse?

Yes.

In fact kipping will build strict pullup ability much better than strict pullup will build kipping pullups.

Todd, your imagination of what should work sounds quite logical. However, experience trumps imagination. The Crossfit experience is that kipping pullups work better at improving strict pullups than strict pullups do.

For example, at age 39 I was practicing a lot of strict pullups and weighted pullups. My best one-rep max in the weighted pullup was 90 lbs. Switching to kipping pullups I improved to a one-rep best of 105 lbs. at age 47 without even practicing weighted pullups. One day I just strapped on a bunch of weight to see what I could do and found that my old pr had gone up by 15 pounds.

High-skill variations of an exercise transfer better to the lower-skill variations than the other way around.

The Marines test on strict pullups because there they are testing for raw strength and are trying to take skill out of the equation. There is a wide variance in kipping skill. There is little variance in skill for the strict pullup as it is such a low-skill movement. However, in real-life situations no one who is going to use a strict pullup when the bad guys are shooting live ammo. You're going to kip like there is no tomorrow to get over that wall. I really don't think a squadron of Marines who practice strict pullups would fare so well in a strict pullup contest against a group of Crossfitters. And they'd get totally crushed in a kipping pullup contest. Kipping is a skill well worth developing.

Andrew Cattermole · 11-04-2006, 04:30 PM

Todd,
You are apporaching it as though its an either or matter,that one type must be superior/inferior. When no one is saying Kipping is better or worse then strict,no one making you do only strict or only kipping,and very few on this board only restrict themselves to one type of chin up let alone grip,bar,angle.
There is no need comparsion.

Kipping is a method used in timed, performance based Met Con WorkOuts.

If you use it within these WOs you will find it benefits grip strength as will as core developement,coordination,timing.

These elements will aid strict pullups as well as other pull movements and beyond.

In reference to Strength development: Yes you are correct that weighted Chin Ups will aid in strength developement in a progressive overload format.
However,You have missed the point if you think kipping is done purely for strength development or to activate "the biceps and back".

Last point is take some of your precious training time and try it.

BTW the "its about your goals" arguement isn't appropriate here,this is a base conditioning routine.Use it as conditioning(scaled as needed) and Put your sport specific skill work on top and you will find benefits.

Adam
Your crazy to think Dead Hang is only usefull for climbing,kipping is an ideal conditioning to lead into campus training and create good dyno technique.Power generation is an main component of bouldering.

Jesse Woody · 11-04-2006, 04:43 PM

....also, the dynamic loading of the shoulder girdle in the bottom is essentially plyometrics for your pulling muscles.

David Aguasca · 11-04-2006, 05:40 PM

i understand where you're coming from, adam. but like coach always says something along the lines of "most functional movement starts at the core and radiates to the extremities." that applies to climbing as well, whether campusing or otherwise (ignoring contact strength, of course.)

so by that quote, when deciding kipping vs. deadhang...kipping is more functional. deadhang is about raw strength. kinda like the difference between pressing and jerking...do both, because crossfit is about mixed modality, but in real life, you'd probably push-jerk something overhead before you'd press it. and if somebody was shooting at me as i tried to climb a wall, i sure as •••• wouldn't debate kipping vs. deadhang.

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11-02-2006, 05:29 AM	#11
Mike ODonnell Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 1,566	Kipping is all about the hip power and stretch reflex of the lats. Takes flexibility to do it. I'd rather do a snatch than a squat-curl-upright press.

11-02-2006, 11:33 AM	#12
Erik Reckdenwald Member Profile: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Garwood NJ Posts: 86	This is along the same lines as Mike's post... Power = work/time work (kipping pullup) = work (strict form pullup) ->assuming full ROM, since you are moving your center of gravity the same distance You will be able to perform more full reps in less time with kipping than without. Most "real life" scenarios require movements that activate multiple muscle groups, so it is important to incorporate complex movements (ie kipping pullups or cleans) rather than all isolation movements. Kipping pullups are to strict pullups as split jerks are to shoulder press.

11-02-2006, 05:08 PM	#13
Dolph Geurds Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Trenton NJ Posts: 89	Look at it this way. It is all about functional strength, if you were being chased and needed to pull yourself up to escape would you use strict form or haul ••• up and over. It took me some practice to kip, but once you got it you will never use strict form again.

11-03-2006, 09:35 AM	#14
Mike Minium Member Profile: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Oakland CA Posts: 860	This classic thread on the very same subject should answer most--if not all--of your questions regarding the kipping pull-up: http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/22/8991.html It's a ten-page goldmine of info. Mike

11-03-2006, 06:38 PM	#15
Todd Ebert Member Profile: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Harrisburg PA Posts: 9	Thanks for all of the great input, especially the reference to the "classic thread". Even after reading through much of this material, I can't say that I am convinced that kipping pull ups are superior to the strict version. I have personally experienced such good progression and strength development over the last 5 years from doing strict weighted pull-ups that I have a hard time believing that changing them would be a good idea. I do believe that multi-joint exercises are always superior to isolation exercises. But it seems to me that in this case, the generation of momentum from the hips is done under very little load and, therefore, contributes little to the overall stress on the body and actually reduces the stress by giving the body a "head start" by generating some momentum before the back and biceps need to do their work. I imagine that practicing strict chins would translate into better performance when doing kipped chins (assuming the kipping technique is learned first). Can the same be said in reverse? Would performing nothing but kipped chins translate into better performance on strict chins? Some of the information I've read would suggest the answer might be "no". I read somewhere in the "classic thread" that an individual could perform 25 to 30 kipped pullups, but only about 3 strict pullups. This suggests to me that this person became very proficient in the kipping technique, but did not necessarily get very strong in the process. I also found it interesting that someone noted that the Marines no longer allow kipping during testing and require strict pull-ups. This suggests to me that they feel that the strict version is superior in either developing or demonstrating the necessary strength in the movement. I don't doubt that you guys know your stuff and seem to have lots of good information to back up your arguments - more than I've provided in mine. In this particular point, however, I have a difficult time believing that the kip is better than the strict version.

11-04-2006, 04:16 AM	#16
Adam Rooke Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Amersham London Posts: 47	Totally agree with your line of thinking Todd. I started Crossfit 3 or so months ago with a very healthy base of dead hang numbers, 18. As I am primarily a climber, I ignored kipping as deadhang pull-ups would have a much bigger crossover into climbing. Since I have started crossfit, my dead hang numbers have gone up to 27 and my climbing grade from V6 to V8, big improvement. However, lately the pull-ups have become the limiting factor in metcon WOD's. I taught myself to kip a few days ago and intend to start using it in some where high numbers of pull-ups are called for. I also agree with you about the strength issue. Having a large number of dead hang pull-ups is much more useful than the same number of kipping ones. Although, for someone starting out it is much more helpful to be knocking off large numbers of kipping pull-ups than hanging hopelessly at the bottom of a bar. There is a time and a place for both types. In the end, it depends what your goal is. When I started it was more dead hang pull-ups, so I did them. Know they have reached a level I am happy with I want to improve my overall conditioning, so kipping is the way forward for me. Neither one is superior to the other, no matter what some people may lead you to believe, try to experiment with both types.

11-04-2006, 08:16 AM	#17
Lincoln Brigham Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 3,987	I imagine that practicing strict chins would translate into better performance when doing kipped chins (assuming the kipping technique is learned first). Can the same be said in reverse? Yes. In fact kipping will build strict pullup ability much better than strict pullup will build kipping pullups. Todd, your imagination of what should work sounds quite logical. However, experience trumps imagination. The Crossfit experience is that kipping pullups work better at improving strict pullups than strict pullups do. For example, at age 39 I was practicing a lot of strict pullups and weighted pullups. My best one-rep max in the weighted pullup was 90 lbs. Switching to kipping pullups I improved to a one-rep best of 105 lbs. at age 47 without even practicing weighted pullups. One day I just strapped on a bunch of weight to see what I could do and found that my old pr had gone up by 15 pounds. High-skill variations of an exercise transfer better to the lower-skill variations than the other way around. The Marines test on strict pullups because there they are testing for raw strength and are trying to take skill out of the equation. There is a wide variance in kipping skill. There is little variance in skill for the strict pullup as it is such a low-skill movement. However, in real-life situations no one who is going to use a strict pullup when the bad guys are shooting live ammo. You're going to kip like there is no tomorrow to get over that wall. I really don't think a squadron of Marines who practice strict pullups would fare so well in a strict pullup contest against a group of Crossfitters. And they'd get totally crushed in a kipping pullup contest. Kipping is a skill well worth developing.

11-04-2006, 04:30 PM	#18
Andrew Cattermole Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Sydney NSW Posts: 418	Todd, You are apporaching it as though its an either or matter,that one type must be superior/inferior. When no one is saying Kipping is better or worse then strict,no one making you do only strict or only kipping,and very few on this board only restrict themselves to one type of chin up let alone grip,bar,angle. There is no need comparsion. Kipping is a method used in timed, performance based Met Con WorkOuts. If you use it within these WOs you will find it benefits grip strength as will as core developement,coordination,timing. These elements will aid strict pullups as well as other pull movements and beyond. In reference to Strength development: Yes you are correct that weighted Chin Ups will aid in strength developement in a progressive overload format. However,You have missed the point if you think kipping is done purely for strength development or to activate "the biceps and back". Last point is take some of your precious training time and try it. BTW the "its about your goals" arguement isn't appropriate here,this is a base conditioning routine.Use it as conditioning(scaled as needed) and Put your sport specific skill work on top and you will find benefits. Adam Your crazy to think Dead Hang is only usefull for climbing,kipping is an ideal conditioning to lead into campus training and create good dyno technique.Power generation is an main component of bouldering.

11-04-2006, 04:43 PM	#19
Jesse Woody Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Orange Virginia Posts: 915	....also, the dynamic loading of the shoulder girdle in the bottom is essentially plyometrics for your pulling muscles.

11-04-2006, 05:40 PM	#20
David Aguasca Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Nyack NY Posts: 828	i understand where you're coming from, adam. but like coach always says something along the lines of "most functional movement starts at the core and radiates to the extremities." that applies to climbing as well, whether campusing or otherwise (ignoring contact strength, of course.) so by that quote, when deciding kipping vs. deadhang...kipping is more functional. deadhang is about raw strength. kinda like the difference between pressing and jerking...do both, because crossfit is about mixed modality, but in real life, you'd probably push-jerk something overhead before you'd press it. and if somebody was shooting at me as i tried to climb a wall, i sure as •••• wouldn't debate kipping vs. deadhang.