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Old 01-05-2008, 10:24 PM   #11
Craig Brown
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Brad, you are dead on with that one. I do eat nuts when I get carb cravings. Interesting!

Craig
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:50 PM   #12
Kirez Reynolds
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Ah, I'll try the nuts fix.

Part of the reason I'm confessing and mentioning my carb cravings... I've been aware of and sympathetic to and trying to adopt Paleo since 1999. This is because I have a background in evolutionary psychology.

And the carb cravings are one of the hottest contention points that most people experience which may suggest that Paleo is not completely sound.

The theory behind Paleo is simple: our organs, our digestive and metabolic physiology, were shaped by selection pressures that last operated on us during the paleolithic period --- somewhere between 500,000 and 40,000 years ago. Our metabolic system was optimizing from the nutrients and food sources available at that time.

Agriculture didn't exist then (according to the theory), and our digestive organs were NOT 'designed' to accommodate the foods we later found most convenient to grow for ourselves. Yet, the compelling economics of agriculture meant that for most of humanity, agriculture came to be the dominant source of our food. All the while, it does not match the nutrient sources which we were deisgned for.

The natural economics of food production --- and, well, demand --- has further driven our food sources toward processed foods relying ever more on agricultural and manufactured sources.

At the same time, life expectancy has soared, far exceeding the period of time during which we were able to get by well enough on these mismatched foods.

* * * * * * * * * *
I agree with this theory --- in broad outlines. But this is a brand new theoretical development and it's got a lot of weak elements. One of them is the contention that our organs last faced selection pressures while optimizing a hunter-gatherer diet.

Recent work on human evolution has shown that, not only have selection pressures continued heavily since the paleolithic period (10,000 to 2.5 million years ago), but human evolution may actually have accelerated.

I haven't read nearly enough on Paleo, so my outline of the theory may be incomplete. But to my understanding, the theory is driving a technology on a very shaky scientific foundation.

The body is so much wiser than our best scientists and philosophers. Of course we cannot trust the wisdom of all our immediate and urgent cravings and wishes ---- who would complete a single tabata if we did? --- but I am driven to wonder whether paleo is wholly sound, based in part on my own experience trying to use it.
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Old 01-06-2008, 04:33 AM   #13
Jay Cohen
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Kirez Reynolds View Post
Ah, I'll try the nuts fix.

Part of the reason I'm confessing and mentioning my carb cravings... I've been aware of and sympathetic to and trying to adopt Paleo since 1999. This is because I have a background in evolutionary psychology.

Since 99, that's 9 years, and you're still trying it??????

I agree with this theory --- in broad outlines. But this is a brand new theoretical development and it's got a lot of weak elements.

I haven't read nearly enough on Paleo, so my outline of the theory may be incomplete. But to my understanding, the theory is driving a technology on a very shaky scientific foundation.

but I am driven to wonder whether paleo is wholly sound, based in part on my own experience trying to use it.
How about "you're way over thinking it, and just do it, strict for 6 months to a year", toss out the boxes/cans (packaged foods),etc, eat the basic Paleo foods.

How can you comment on it's supposed weak elements?? If you're going to "talk the talk, shouldn't you walk the walk.??!!

These type of posts, just confuse and make others wonder if this type of eating works, as it obviously isn't working for you, but, it's working for quite a few CF'rs and PM posters

It's amazing how some over think or question what boils down to "basic work".

You got to love the Nike motto "Just Do It"as opposed to:
"Post question, discuss, repost, discuss, make excuses, repost, discuss..........................
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:03 AM   #14
Jason Borzych
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Jay, I don't think your response is completely fair although i do agree with a lot of it. Just because paleo works for alot of people doesn't mean it should go unchallenged. Alot of these people that converted to paleo came from McDonalds, im pretty sure a diet of only beef jerky would show improvements over that. Now I agree with the foundation of the paleo diet, but I am also a firm believer in if something is measurable it can be made better. But to agree with you on one point....Don't criticize something you have "meant" to do but haven't for nine years.
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:26 AM   #15
James Besenyei
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Kirez Reynolds View Post

I haven't read nearly enough on Paleo, so my outline of the theory may be incomplete. But to my understanding, the theory is driving a technology on a very shaky scientific foundation.

Recent work on human evolution has shown that, not only have selection pressures continued heavily since the paleolithic period (10,000 to 2.5 million years ago), but human evolution may actually have accelerated.

...I am driven to wonder whether paleo is wholly sound, based in part on my own experience trying to use it.
Kirez, if you think that Paleo is unsound then why are you still attempting to implement it as part of your health regiment? It seems to me you are not convinced of its efficacy. Paleo may not be the answer for you. And that would be fine.

The other question I have for you is this: what are the known adaptations that occurred during the period of accelerated human evolution, who completed the recent work, what peer reviewed journal was the theory/study published in, and how have these evolutionary adaptations reworked human physiology/anatomy (particularly the digestive system)?

Brad, thanks for the tip on macadamia nuts.
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:35 AM   #16
Jay Cohen
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Jason Borzych View Post
Jay, I don't think your response is completely fair although i do agree with a lot of it. Just because paleo works for alot of people doesn't mean it should go unchallenged. Alot of these people that converted to paleo came from McDonalds, im pretty sure a diet of only beef jerky would show improvements over that. Now I agree with the foundation of the paleo diet, but I am also a firm believer in if something is measurable it can be made better. But to agree with you on one point....Don't criticize something you have "meant" to do but haven't for nine years.
Jason;
Why cant' we just experiment on ourselves(Blackbox), does it always have to be measurable?? You CAN'T get simpler then Paleo, or more precise then Zone, but if you need other opinions or studies, well, you might be waiting a long time and the study might be slanted. Do I need studies to tell me that:
Fish Oil, CF, Zone, Paleo, IF, Elimination of Grain, Probiotics, PWO vs no PWO, not really, but truthfully, I'd be hard press to tell you that anyone of those are working, or have changed my life, though CF along with meeting really cool people has changed my life for the better.
Also adding meat back into my diet has had noticeable results,
So to sum up, Just Do It and report back.

Simple.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:20 AM   #17
David Wood
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Guys: a whole lot of "testiness" in the replies here . . . how about everyone taking it down a bit in terms of the degree of personal involvement?

I thought Kirez did a decent job of describing the foundations of the "paleo" approach to eating, although it is a complex subject, and no 200-word introduction is going to give a complete story.

FWIW, you can also advance the argument that evolution may have effectively "stopped" in the last century or so, on the grounds that evolution needs (a) multiple generations to work, and (b) a relatively constant environment to "select" for and against favorable and unfavorable traits . . . but our social & economic environments, at least, have changed so rapidly over the last 100 years that it's difficult to say what traits are advantageous any more. This idea is put forth by Miller and Kanazawa in "Why Beautiful People Have More Daughters" (a simple popularization of evolutionary psychology) (wfs link to Amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Peop...9643430&sr=8-1)


Kirez, I honestly don't know if your specific difficulty in giving up grains indicates anything generally about the efficacy and wisdom of a strict Paleo approach . . . but I do kind of agree with Jay that you don't really know (even for yourself alone) without giving it a fairly strict trial . . . at least a month or two?

For myself, I've found it trivially easy to give up pasta and most bread . . . but still like my cooked grains (usually, slow-cooked morning oatmeal). I work it into Zone proportions with protein and fat, and find it immensely satisfying . . . enough that I no longer care whether the Paleo Police would disapprove, or whether it fits any particular vision of evolutionary psychology or not.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:57 AM   #18
Theresa Meyer
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by Susie Rosenberg View Post
Well, for quite a while---2, 3 years, I ate a pretty clean diet, but routinely included barley, brown rice, whole grain breads and pastas, beans and legumes.

Then, I started eating paleo (except for those two dairy foods). I did do a combined Zone/paleo thing, but the precision of the Zone doesn't work well with me, it gets me too obsessive and perfectionistic. (I do track on fitday at frequent intervals, so I know pretty much how many calories I'm eating.)

After eating paleo for a couple of months, I added IF, and I really like how I feel on it. I like the freedom of fasting. I like how I feel during a fast. I think going paleo had the biggest impact on my body in terms of getting leaner.

I've been IFing for a couple of weeks, and I usually fast from about 8 or 9pm at night until about 1 or 2pm, roughly 16 hours. Twice I woke up in the morning knowing I needed to eat, so I did. No big deal. I like being in touch with my body in this way.

I think it pays to do things in increments. Tends to "stick" better.

Susie
Susie,
Do you do IF every day then?
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:21 PM   #19
Gerhard Lavin
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

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Originally Posted by James Besenyei View Post
Kirez, if you think that Paleo is unsound then why are you still attempting to implement it as part of your health regiment? It seems to me you are not convinced of its efficacy. Paleo may not be the answer for you. And that would be fine.

The other question I have for you is this: what are the known adaptations that occurred during the period of accelerated human evolution, who completed the recent work, what peer reviewed journal was the theory/study published in, and how have these evolutionary adaptations reworked human physiology/anatomy (particularly the digestive system)?

Brad, thanks for the tip on macadamia nuts.
Adaption for lactose tolerance
Evolution of the human mouth to deal with cooked food.
Humans carry more copies additional salivary amylase gene and here
All WFS. Not the primary sources so you may need to dig around.

I'm not knocking "paleo". It just not cut and dried that our ancestors were primarily meat eaters. Tubers probably played an important part. Fibre was upto 100g per day We may ave gene adaptions for grain. Weston Price seemed to find plenty of healthy traditional grain based diets.
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Old 01-06-2008, 02:19 PM   #20
James Besenyei
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Re: How Has Paleo Worked For You?

Thanks for the links Ger.

Hope my last post wasn't taken the wrong way. I was actually just trying to find out where Kirez's information could be found b/c I'm not schooled in human adaptation/evolution, save a very base understanding, and my Paleo information is from very pro-paleo sources. Kirez, no offense intended, and I look forward to any information you can offer. Thanks.

Last edited by James Besenyei : 01-06-2008 at 02:30 PM.
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