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Old 10-03-2007, 04:45 PM   #21
Jeff Evans
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

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Originally Posted by Corey Duvall View Post
I'm a little confused still. Vegetables contain carbohydrates. You're supporting vegetable consumption, yet they aren't necessary? I know now I don't currently have enough background in this to have made as bold a statement as I did before ("carbs ARE necessary"), but it seems to me you are contradicting yourself. Could you please clarify?

Perhaps carbs aren't necessary to SUSTAIN life, but to THRIVE they would be?
I can't speak for Garrett, but one might consider vegetables necessary for other reasons, such as their fiber or vitamin content. That they also contain carbohydrates then becomes somewhat irrelevant.
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:04 PM   #22
Tom Rawls
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Aren't carbs the source of glycogen in the muscle and aren't carbs the preferred energy source for intense exercise lasting longer than about 30 second but less than say 20-30 minutes? I understand that we can become more efficient at burning fat, but if you want to perform well at Crossfit or any other intense work or exercise regime, don't you still need carbs?

Isn't the largest component of the Zone diet carbs?

Thanx for any clarification.
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:28 PM   #23
Garrett Smith
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Carbs are a part of vegetables, yes.

Are they the beneficial part of the vegetables? In a way, yes, they do provide fiber. However, due to the fact that humans can live on a nearly fiber-less diet (see the Inuit and Mr Johannson's experiment to show that), fiber may not be as beneficial as was once thought (or it may be really beneficial in the context of today's crappy modern processed diets, to help clean the processed foods out of our guts ASAP).

People feel great on green drinks, which are basically veggies with the carbs and water removed. If we had carb-less veggies that still had all their nutrition, that would be great. One important thing to remember is that we don't absorb all (maybe not even half) of the active carbs in whole, chewed vegetables.

Remember that the body adapts its enzyme systems to whatever fuel you take in regularly.

Take in a lot of carbs, then your body becomes dependent upon that (cheap, inefficient, dirty) fuel source. Fat-burning enzymes slow down, as they aren't being used. Hypoglycemia and the related symptoms (fatigue, sleepiness, irritability, dizziness) ensue.

Get most of your fuel from fats and proteins (seriously, a half-pound of fresh spinach has like 4 carbs, so I'm not even counting it as a source for those on non-starchy veggie Paleo) and the body upregulates the fat-burning and fat-converting enzymes.

The switchover takes time. That's why diabetics who go low carb can get into a ketotic state so fast--their bodies can't remember the last time they ever burned any fat.

Talk to a convert like me (I'm doing 18 hour fast IF, on a Paleo regimen) who goes out and works out (I'm in training for my upcoming sprint triathlon to be followed that afternoon with some relatively max lifting) on an empty stomach that hasn't had food in nearly twelve hours and you will hear that carbs become frivolous in completing workouts under (I'd guess) about 1-2 hours.

I do a hard uphill fixed-gear bike ride (~35 minutes) followed by a 2.5 mile hike & uphill hill sprints round trip (~50 minutes total, I rest after my sprints to wait for my parents and walk between hills) only on some coffee. Sometimes only on some herbal tea.

Carbs add variety. They are far from necessary. The more one feels they are necessary is likely an indicator of one's level of addiction to them (be it physical or mental).
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Old 10-03-2007, 05:31 PM   #24
Corey Duvall
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

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Originally Posted by Tom Rawls View Post
Aren't carbs the source of glycogen in the muscle
I think the argument is that the body can create glucose (carbs) from other sources. Glycogen is a long chain of glucose molecules... so the idea is we eat protein and fat, the body makes carbohydrates out of them, then it joins them all together into glycogen.
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Old 10-04-2007, 06:09 AM   #25
Corey Duvall
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

That's very impressive. But I can't give up that easy... there must be negatives to a higher fat diet, lower carb diet. What are they, and what else should we be eating to help balance those effects?

It's rather funny how in the last six months I've actually had to question pretty much everything I've learned in life. Onward and sideways I suppose...
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:29 AM   #26
Gerhard Lavin
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Good article (WFS) by Lyle McDonald on daily carb requirements.
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Old 10-04-2007, 07:48 AM   #27
Garrett Smith
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Corey,
The only drawbacks to the high fat part of a diet is when one gets the wrong kind of fats or they are imbalanced in their intake (ie. eating hydrogenated fat and/or not getting enough EPA/DHA and too many O-6s).

As to low carb, the only drawback again is where the source of the carbs is coming from. There are quality carbohydrates (mainly non-starchy veggies, not necessarily for the carbs, for the vitamins/minerals/phytonutrients/maybe the fiber), and there are tons of junk carbs (I don't think I need to list those).

Article on NYT about the failure and deception of high-carb lowfat dieting:
What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:13 AM   #28
Brandon Oto
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

There is also a limit that your GI tract sets as to how much fat you can process. The rest just... goes through.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:42 AM   #29
Scott Parker
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

i say good luck to any crossfitter who follows the WOD and doesn't eat carbs. see how long it takes you to start gassing out quick during a WOD, losing energy and feeling like crap. it'll work for a while but will quickly catch up to you. i think it is pretty safe to say that the hardcore crossfitters that hold the records for a lot of the benchmark crossfit workouts pretty much follow the zone and eat both "favorable" and "unfavorable" carbs. hands down, you need carbohydrates to feed your brain. i would think just eeating fats and protein all the time your body isn't going to synthesize carbohydrate in quantities fast enough to supply the amount your brain requires. i would like to hear otherwise or see evidence of a crossfitter that follows a no carb diet and posts legit record times for WODs. who knows, i may be wrong.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:50 AM   #30
Eric Gagnon
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Re: Balancing carbs, protein, fats at meals...why??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Carbs are a part of vegetables, yes.

Are they the beneficial part of the vegetables? In a way, yes, they do provide fiber. However, due to the fact that humans can live on a nearly fiber-less diet (see the Inuit and Mr Johannson's experiment to show that), fiber may not be as beneficial as was once thought (or it may be really beneficial in the context of today's crappy modern processed diets, to help clean the processed foods out of our guts ASAP).

People feel great on green drinks, which are basically veggies with the carbs and water removed. If we had carb-less veggies that still had all their nutrition, that would be great. One important thing to remember is that we don't absorb all (maybe not even half) of the active carbs in whole, chewed vegetables.

Remember that the body adapts its enzyme systems to whatever fuel you take in regularly.

Take in a lot of carbs, then your body becomes dependent upon that (cheap, inefficient, dirty) fuel source. Fat-burning enzymes slow down, as they aren't being used. Hypoglycemia and the related symptoms (fatigue, sleepiness, irritability, dizziness) ensue.

Get most of your fuel from fats and proteins (seriously, a half-pound of fresh spinach has like 4 carbs, so I'm not even counting it as a source for those on non-starchy veggie Paleo) and the body upregulates the fat-burning and fat-converting enzymes.

The switchover takes time. That's why diabetics who go low carb can get into a ketotic state so fast--their bodies can't remember the last time they ever burned any fat.

Talk to a convert like me (I'm doing 18 hour fast IF, on a Paleo regimen) who goes out and works out (I'm in training for my upcoming sprint triathlon to be followed that afternoon with some relatively max lifting) on an empty stomach that hasn't had food in nearly twelve hours and you will hear that carbs become frivolous in completing workouts under (I'd guess) about 1-2 hours.

I do a hard uphill fixed-gear bike ride (~35 minutes) followed by a 2.5 mile hike & uphill hill sprints round trip (~50 minutes total, I rest after my sprints to wait for my parents and walk between hills) only on some coffee. Sometimes only on some herbal tea.

Carbs add variety. They are far from necessary. The more one feels they are necessary is likely an indicator of one's level of addiction to them (be it physical or mental).
I am wondering if you can expand on this (part in bold) a bit more seeing as I am type 1. Is it a good thing or bad thing that my body could go into a ketotic state faster than one without diabetes?
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