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Old 08-23-2008, 05:25 AM   #21
Camille Lore
 
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

Bonny- thanks for chiming in. It's interesting to hear from someone who's been through the process.
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Old 08-23-2008, 05:53 AM   #22
Jerry Mobbs
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

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Originally Posted by Joe Cavazos View Post
The investigation isn't going to come up with anything, and the IOC knows this. This is why they are doing it. This is by design.

IOC: Well, China, there's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that you cheated and falsified these state-produced documents. For our investigation, we're going to ask you turn over more state-produced documents to us so we can verify the ages of these athletes.

China: Sure, here you go.

IOC: Well, this all checks out then. Yep, all these athletes were of age. Sorry to trouble you.

Also, Bonny, maybe it's not necessary to physically take the gold medals from the illegal gymnasts, but the legal gymnasts should get their just deserts (the medals they deserve) and the Olympic standings should reflect this.
Would it be any different if the games were held in the US?
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:56 AM   #23
Barry Cooper
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

With respect to the "missing diver", I was just repeating what the commentator said. He may have been referring to the Sydney Olympic--or he may simply have been ignorant.

With respect to the word "kidnapped", I don't get the impression this is a voluntary thing. I can't imagine a parent anywhere who is going to feel positively about losing their 3 year old kid (especially in a nation which, unless it's changed, only allows one child per couple) 11 months out of the year, or whatever it is, knowing that they are one of thousands in training, and that the odds of them ever winning anything is quite small. Tremendous downside, marginal or non-existent upside for all but a few dozen kids in a country of more than a billion.

Bonnie: how much choice did your parents have? How did they describe the conversation with the Government officials?

Also, out of curiosity: how do you pick someone who is 3? How can they see potential?

How many weeks out of the year did you see your parents?
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Old 08-23-2008, 09:03 AM   #24
Jerry Mobbs
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

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Originally Posted by Barry Cooper View Post
ant.

With respect to the word "kidnapped", I don't get the impression this is a voluntary thing. I can't imagine a parent anywhere who is going to feel positively about losing their 3 year old kid (especially in a nation which, unless it's changed, only allows one child per couple) 11 months out of the year, or whatever it is, knowing that they are one of thousands in training, and that the odds of them ever winning anything is quite small. Tremendous downside, marginal or non-existent upside for all but a few dozen kids in a country of more than a billion.
Its more of an agonizing choice, rather than kidnapped. If I recall the first cut is quite large and is based around size, growth rate, health and aptitude. Then the training starts and its hard. Non performers are culled as they take up space that could be used by the next as yet undiscovered champion.

However; its seen as a step up the ladder and if your choice is to let your child try and get ahead by working in a field, or as labour in the city, then getting them into a sports program is not a bad option.

It may appear ruthless and coldhearted, but its the price of progress and is no different than the ruthlessness that build the railroads, consolidated the oil industry or herded indians off their land and onto reservations.

Its merely another expression of the ruthlessness required to quickly modernize a country of over 1.3Bn.

Last edited by Jerry Mobbs : 08-23-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 08-23-2008, 01:20 PM   #25
Barry Cooper
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

I have to admit the connection between economic progress and athletic performance is not obvious to me.

I would be genuinely curious as to what Bonnie has to say. Given what I've read, it's quite fortunate she's able to post from California, since not all places on earth allow equal access to the internet. I would be curious if the CrossFit site is accessible from Beijing. If anyone is there, please let me know.
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:34 PM   #26
Camille Lore
 
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

Barry- I wondered the same thing about picking the kids. Could it be that genetics doesn't play a part?
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:36 PM   #27
George Mounce
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

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Originally Posted by Jerry Mobbs View Post
Its more of an agonizing choice, rather than kidnapped. If I recall the first cut is quite large and is based around size, growth rate, health and aptitude. Then the training starts and its hard. Non performers are culled as they take up space that could be used by the next as yet undiscovered champion.

However; its seen as a step up the ladder and if your choice is to let your child try and get ahead by working in a field, or as labour in the city, then getting them into a sports program is not a bad option.

It may appear ruthless and coldhearted, but its the price of progress and is no different than the ruthlessness that build the railroads, consolidated the oil industry or herded indians off their land and onto reservations.

Its merely another expression of the ruthlessness required to quickly modernize a country of over 1.3Bn.
How does herding kids to the athletic school have anything to do with modernization when the parents are still poor as hell? It doesn't appear that way - it is that way.

Its the expression of a country wanting to dominate in athletics so people will ignore the myriad of problems that are going on behind the scenes. Am I the only one who saw the exact same thing with the USSR? Come on now this is par for the course.

I honestly could care less how many gold medals China wins if their people are treated like hell.
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:47 PM   #28
Jerry Mobbs
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

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I have to admit the connection between economic progress and athletic performance is not obvious to me.

I would be genuinely curious as to what Bonnie has to say. Given what I've read, it's quite fortunate she's able to post from California, since not all places on earth allow equal access to the internet. I would be curious if the CrossFit site is accessible from Beijing. If anyone is there, please let me know.
The Crossfit site is available in Beijing. Well it was last week.

The connection is rather simple, from the Chinese point of view it comes down to bragging rights. They feel that they have been 'looked down on' by the rest of the world, and the Olympics are the mother of all coming out parties.

They are intensely proud of what their athletes have achieved, and whilst we might disagree with their methods, the results have been seriously impressive.

I look forward to 2012, and the no doubt intense battle for Golds between the USA and China will make for a very competitive games.

Last edited by Jerry Mobbs : 08-23-2008 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:58 PM   #29
Jerry Mobbs
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

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How does herding kids to the athletic school have anything to do with modernization when the parents are still poor as hell? It doesn't appear that way - it is that way.

Its the expression of a country wanting to dominate in athletics so people will ignore the myriad of problems that are going on behind the scenes. Am I the only one who saw the exact same thing with the USSR? Come on now this is par for the course.

I honestly could care less how many gold medals China wins if their people are treated like hell.
George,

Yes, their parents are poor by your standards, but if you look at the GDP growth rates in China over the last 10 years, then its been very impressive. People today are much better off in an economic sense than they were back then.

Comparing the actions of China today with a western democracy today, is always going to stack the deck against China. You need to compare China today with the US of 150-200 years ago and European powers of 200+ years ago. The way they treat thier people is no different than the mass slaughter of Indian tribes, again all in the name of progress.

By the way "It's the expression of a country wanting to dominate in athletics so people will ignore the myriad of problems that are going on behind the scenes." is not correct. China only had 1 real medal chance in athletics. This statement is actually more relevant to the USA I believe. If you look at expectations in the 100m and other track events, combined with budget deficits and health insurance.... ;-).
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Old 08-23-2008, 08:52 PM   #30
Christian Gotcher
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Re: WHOA!!! Underage Gymnast Breaking News

Jerry, are you trying to imply that "budget deficits and health insurance" are equivalent to human rights violations, tolerated police brutality (usually racist in its origin), and other similar crimes?

Why would you say we 'should' compare them to the USA 150 years ago, or Europe 200+ years ago... when they are living in 2008. In Olympic terms, that would be like saying "Yeah, X team came in 9th place in the prelims and didn't even qualify, but you have to compare them to the champions in the sport at the turn of the century. Had they competed in 1900, they would have blown the competition out of the water."

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