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Old 11-06-2009, 06:52 AM   #41
Tom Fetter
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Re: swine flue true statistics

I'll just make one last comment.

Jared, I'm absolutely not suggesting that we should vaccinate out of a "but we've always done it this way" mindset. Bear in mind that until comparatively recently in our species' history, "what we've always done" ... is get sick. Maybe die.

I'm suggesting we vaccinate because empirically, it works. Find me a case of smallpox. Find me a case of polio, outside the parts of Africa without effective vaccination programs.

Are there risks? Sure - but much smaller than the risks of getting the disease itself. Smaller risks than we run daily by driving to the grocery store or to work. Are vaccines uniformly effective? No - it depends on the disease, and to some degree on the individual and the population. In 60 years of global usage, influenza vaccines have proven to be effective ... provided that the virus itself hasn't mutated substantially between when it was cultured, and when the vaccination was given. The current H1N1 vaccine is well within scope to be effective.

It is up to you - but please don't muddy the issue with claims of bogus science, or inflated risks. This is not a case of doing something because of status-quo inertia ... it's a case of using a proven technology.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:50 PM   #42
Jared Buffie
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Re: swine flue true statistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fetter View Post
I'll just make one last comment.

Jared, I'm absolutely not suggesting that we should vaccinate out of a "but we've always done it this way" mindset. Bear in mind that until comparatively recently in our species' history, "what we've always done" ... is get sick. Maybe die.

I'm suggesting we vaccinate because empirically, it works. Find me a case of smallpox. Find me a case of polio, outside the parts of Africa without effective vaccination programs.

Are there risks? Sure - but much smaller than the risks of getting the disease itself. Smaller risks than we run daily by driving to the grocery store or to work. Are vaccines uniformly effective? No - it depends on the disease, and to some degree on the individual and the population. In 60 years of global usage, influenza vaccines have proven to be effective ... provided that the virus itself hasn't mutated substantially between when it was cultured, and when the vaccination was given. The current H1N1 vaccine is well within scope to be effective.

It is up to you - but please don't muddy the issue with claims of bogus science, or inflated risks. This is not a case of doing something because of status-quo inertia ... it's a case of using a proven technology.
So Tom, how can you prove to me that the flu shots prevent the flu? Or can you? I'm 100% positive that you can't.
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Old 11-06-2009, 06:53 PM   #43
Jared Buffie
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Re: swine flue true statistics

Drake, the world was scientifically proven to be round. All I'm asking is for scientific proof that flu shots prevent people from getting sick from the flu. Why can't someone just post the studies (DB RCTs) and I promise I will shut up on the topic forever.

Waiting patiently......
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:07 PM   #44
Frank E Morel
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Re: swine flue true statistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Buffie View Post
Drake, the world was scientifically proven to be round. All I'm asking is for scientific proof that flu shots prevent people from getting sick from the flu. Why can't someone just post the studies (DB RCTs) and I promise I will shut up on the topic forever.

Waiting patiently......
CAUSE THEY DONT!!!!!!!!!

THEY LESSEN THE SEVERITY OF THE FLU.

SHEESH
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:08 PM   #45
Frank E Morel
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Re: swine flue true statistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Buffie View Post
Drake, the world was scientifically proven to be round. All I'm asking is for scientific proof that flu shots prevent people from getting sick from the flu. Why can't someone just post the studies (DB RCTs) and I promise I will shut up on the topic forever.

Waiting patiently......
CAUSE THEY DONT!!!!!!!!!

THEY LESSEN THE SEVERITY OF THE FLU AND THE COMMUNICABILITY FOR SPREAD.

SHEESH
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:14 PM   #46
Jared Buffie
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Re: swine flue true statistics

Frank...

Thanks for clarifying. Now if you could just point me to the studies proving those statements, that would be great. Thanks.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:08 PM   #47
Frank E Morel
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Re: swine flue true statistics

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Originally Posted by Jared Buffie View Post
Frank...

Thanks for clarifying. Now if you could just point me to the studies proving those statements, that would be great. Thanks.
No cause i will be here for hours trying give you a university level education on virology, epidemiology and immunology. And vaccinations date back oh.. a 200 years of scientific study.
first vaccine was smallpox 1790s..


wfs
http://www.path.org/vaccineresources...cines_Work.pdf

Nutshell...
an influenza vaccine (commonly called the "flu shot") to avoid contracting influenza viruses that routinely circulate in our communities. The vaccine provides immunity by stimulating the human body to produce antibodies to fight off certain viruses. The antibodies are effective for four to six months. When you are exposed to the influenza virus, the antibodies will help either to prevent infection or to reduce the severity of the illness it causes. A vaccine is usually administered by injection; it includes a form of the virus that is dead or weakened - so it is harmless to people.
that is about a simple as i can make it. Any simpler I have to hire doctor seus

here is a link to a Pharmacy continuing education link on h1N1 vaccination.
maybe you get better idea what everyone is talking about.
wfs
http://www.uspharmacist.com/continui...ssonid/105669/

Otherwise, why not go down to the health sciences medical centre or to the misericordia hospital and sit in the waiting room of the ER for a couple of hours and see how you fair in a room with coughing sneezing people Test your immune system.

this thread has become exhausting.
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Last edited by Frank E Morel : 11-06-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:15 AM   #48
Frank E Morel
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Re: swine flue true statistics

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Originally Posted by Jared Buffie View Post
Frank...

Thanks for clarifying. Now if you could just point me to the studies proving those statements, that would be great. Thanks.
Actually YOU prove that they dont. Everyone has bent over backwards explaining the concept. Its time you prove they dont.
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:59 AM   #49
Jared Buffie
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Re: swine flue true statistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank E Morel View Post
No cause i will be here for hours trying give you a university level education on virology, epidemiology and immunology. And vaccinations date back oh.. a 200 years of scientific study.
first vaccine was smallpox 1790s..


wfs
http://www.path.org/vaccineresources...cines_Work.pdf

Nutshell...
an influenza vaccine (commonly called the "flu shot") to avoid contracting influenza viruses that routinely circulate in our communities. The vaccine provides immunity by stimulating the human body to produce antibodies to fight off certain viruses. The antibodies are effective for four to six months. When you are exposed to the influenza virus, the antibodies will help either to prevent infection or to reduce the severity of the illness it causes. A vaccine is usually administered by injection; it includes a form of the virus that is dead or weakened - so it is harmless to people.
that is about a simple as i can make it. Any simpler I have to hire doctor seus

here is a link to a Pharmacy continuing education link on h1N1 vaccination.
maybe you get better idea what everyone is talking about.
wfs
http://www.uspharmacist.com/continui...ssonid/105669/

Otherwise, why not go down to the health sciences medical centre or to the misericordia hospital and sit in the waiting room of the ER for a couple of hours and see how you fair in a room with coughing sneezing people Test your immune system.

this thread has become exhausting.
I think that was the most condescending thing a nurse has ever said to me. I believe I got as much training on immunology in school as you did, BTW. I just look at it from a different perspective. Of course, vaccines work in theory... but so does communism.

As for your proof about flu shots not working:

Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine, Oct 2008: “significant influenza vaccine effectiveness could not be demonstrated for any season, age, or setting”

American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine, Sept 2008: “no decrease in deaths from influenza and pneumonia despite the fact that vaccination rates have risen from 15% in 1980 to 65% now”

National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease: “We conclude that frailty selection bias and use of non-specific endpoints such as all-cause mortality have led cohort studies to greatly exaggerate vaccine benefits”

Cochrane Database of Systemic Reviews, 2006: A review of 51 studies involving 260000 children found no evidence that the flu vaccine is any more effective than a placebo

So should we base mass immunization policy on tradition and dogma, or peer-reviewed literature? And I agree... this is exhausting. But thanks for pointing out the fact that there are no studies, backing the recommendations made.
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Old 11-07-2009, 01:09 PM   #50
Wayne Riddle
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Re: swine flue true statistics

One thing to keep in mind is that a guess is being made as to which strain of the flu a vaccine will be needed for 6-9 months down the road (or longer). If a different strain pops up then the vaccine might offer some help but who knows.

As for vaccines in general, only someone with their head in the sand would deny they are affective.
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