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Old 04-27-2009, 07:47 AM   #1
Adam Rosner
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BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

Hey guys,

Now, I am a huge fan of Cross Fit, but have put it on the back burner for now because I don't have adequate gear, and also because I need to work on my gymnastic skills, so for the time being I am working out of Building the Gymnastic Body by Coach Sommers. Everything I have learned about body weight stuff is that you need strength (duh) but also that the strength to weight ratio needs to be in check. There is no point in "bulking up" to become stronger if it just means you need to lift more weight with each BW exercise.

My goal is to gain total athletic mastery over my own body weight, which includes strength gain and also excess body weight loss.

-I am 215lbs (I have recently gained 10lbs and I know that I can shed that pretty quickly if I need to - which I do)
-I am 6'1" and approx. 15% body fat, wanting to be below 10%

So if I calculate my zone blocks using an activity factor of .7 (I figure that gymnastics training isn't much more extreme than CrossFit, if at all, but it is more consistently strength based) I come out to an 18 block requirement.

Most of what I read on the gymnasticbodies.com site tells me I need 1g protein per lbs lean mass (yeah I know, the same thing you hear from body builders all the time). I was curious, however, if it might be considered a good idea to do my ordinary 18 block zone diet, with an extra protein shake thrown in their (or the protein equivalent). This would be a 18block Zone (as close to Paleo as possible) + 40g protein. Is this necessary at all, keeping in mind that my goal is fat loss/strength gain (aka better body weight to strength ratio)?? Should I just stick with the Zone as is? Thank you guys for listning.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:04 AM   #2
Andrew Husband
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

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Originally Posted by Adam Rosner View Post
Hey guys,

Now, I am a huge fan of Cross Fit, but have put it on the back burner for now because I don't have adequate gear, and also because I need to work on my gymnastic skills, so for the time being I am working out of Building the Gymnastic Body by Coach Sommers. Everything I have learned about body weight stuff is that you need strength (duh) but also that the strength to weight ratio needs to be in check. There is no point in "bulking up" to become stronger if it just means you need to lift more weight with each BW exercise.

My goal is to gain total athletic mastery over my own body weight, which includes strength gain and also excess body weight loss.

-I am 215lbs (I have recently gained 10lbs and I know that I can shed that pretty quickly if I need to - which I do)
-I am 6'1" and approx. 15% body fat, wanting to be below 10%

So if I calculate my zone blocks using an activity factor of .7 (I figure that gymnastics training isn't much more extreme than CrossFit, if at all, but it is more consistently strength based) I come out to an 18 block requirement.

Most of what I read on the gymnasticbodies.com site tells me I need 1g protein per lbs lean mass (yeah I know, the same thing you hear from body builders all the time). I was curious, however, if it might be considered a good idea to do my ordinary 18 block zone diet, with an extra protein shake thrown in their (or the protein equivalent). This would be a 18block Zone (as close to Paleo as possible) + 40g protein. Is this necessary at all, keeping in mind that my goal is fat loss/strength gain (aka better body weight to strength ratio)?? Should I just stick with the Zone as is? Thank you guys for listning.
Adam, you'll see that most people onhere will respond with advice to up eat much more than the prescribed zone, especially if gaining lean mass and trimming fat are your goals. I'm 6'2" 190 at about 12% bodyfat and I did a strict 17 block zone for a while (which is about 1500 calories per day). I 2x the fat for a few weeks, and then I began eating a lot more and seeing better results. I now eat around 25 protein blocks a day, 10 carb blocks, and 50 fat blocks.

Melissa Byers will tell you to eat more, and I think she is right. I will also agree with her in that the Zone as rx'd is not for CrossFitters--I took her advice and it has made a difference. For someone your size you need a lot more protein than 18 blocks per day, and doubling your fat would not hurt either. You are already a big and lean dude to begin with, so I'd imagine with that muscle your metabolism is already pretty high.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:13 AM   #3
Travis Earp
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

Agreed, most people don't eat enough.

Experiment and see what works for you. Try baseline zone for a few weeks if you want, see how you feel, then adjust from there. Most athletes that are zoning are doing so at 3-5x fat, which bumps their calorie intake up to a significantly higher level.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:18 AM   #4
Adam Rosner
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

Wow, thanks for the great advice Andrew. Can you believe that a few months ago I was doing 16 blocks a day for 4 days and then eating too much because I was going insane from hunger for the next 3 days! haha

Everything you said was common sense, and it's what I kind of already knew (or should have). Thanks for the great reply
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:11 PM   #5
Brad D. Gregory
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

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Originally Posted by Andrew Husband View Post
Adam, you'll see that most people onhere will respond with advice to up eat much more than the prescribed zone, especially if gaining lean mass and trimming fat are your goals. I'm 6'2" 190 at about 12% bodyfat and I did a strict 17 block zone for a while (which is about 1500 calories per day). I 2x the fat for a few weeks, and then I began eating a lot more and seeing better results. I now eat around 25 protein blocks a day, 10 carb blocks, and 50 fat blocks.

Melissa Byers will tell you to eat more, and I think she is right. I will also agree with her in that the Zone as rx'd is not for CrossFitters--I took her advice and it has made a difference. For someone your size you need a lot more protein than 18 blocks per day, and doubling your fat would not hurt either. You are already a big and lean dude to begin with, so I'd imagine with that muscle your metabolism is already pretty high.
Andrew, a couple of quick questions on your reply. When you say 'started seeing better results' do you mean performance wise or shedding BF? Both?

Also, what are you eating to get 25 blocks of protein? I recently started using a protein powder to get my protein up. I am having difficulty ingesting a ton of protein. I get full so fast when I try, especially when I'm adding 6 cups of broc to the meal
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Old 04-28-2009, 04:13 PM   #6
Melissa Urban
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

Hold on...

I don't just run around telling random people to eat more. Not EVERYONE needs to eat more. Most people who write to me, yes. But not everyone.

I second what Travis said. In your case, Adam, I would actually start with your Zone prescription, except double the fat right away. See, 18 blocks puts you at .7 grams of protein/LBW... which may, in fact, be adequate. Dumping a random amount of extra protein on top of that - especially a not so great protein source - may not be necessary at all.

Start with the basics. Hang out there for a week or two, see how things go. If you need more - more food, more energy, more strength - I'd play with your fat and your carbs (cut carbs, add fat) and then consider adding a few more protein blocks. After all, a diet adequate in fat is muscle-sparing, right? And you need to kind of tweak one thing at a time, to help you figure out what's working and what isn't.

Read this post from Robb (WFS). It might help you get started.

Melissa
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Last edited by Melissa Urban; 04-28-2009 at 04:16 PM..
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Old 04-29-2009, 04:03 PM   #7
Adam Rosner
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

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Originally Posted by Melissa Byers View Post
Hold on...

I don't just run around telling random people to eat more. Not EVERYONE needs to eat more. Most people who write to me, yes. But not everyone.

I second what Travis said. In your case, Adam, I would actually start with your Zone prescription, except double the fat right away. See, 18 blocks puts you at .7 grams of protein/LBW... which may, in fact, be adequate. Dumping a random amount of extra protein on top of that - especially a not so great protein source - may not be necessary at all.

Start with the basics. Hang out there for a week or two, see how things go. If you need more - more food, more energy, more strength - I'd play with your fat and your carbs (cut carbs, add fat) and then consider adding a few more protein blocks. After all, a diet adequate in fat is muscle-sparing, right? And you need to kind of tweak one thing at a time, to help you figure out what's working and what isn't.

Read this post from Robb (WFS). It might help you get started.

Melissa
I assume that the protein powder I was talking about is that "not so good source" right? Deep down I knew that, though it's convenient to down a shake, I'm not doing my body as much good.

So you're saying 18 blocks with 2x fat to start, and then if needed to drop carbs and up fat? I will definitely try this to start. I have read 42 ways to Skin the Zone a dozen times but was always under the impression that upping the fat was only supposed to be done when BF% started to get low enough to hinder performance (which, from the sound of things, is pretty low)

Melissa, thank you for the response. I'm learning more about nutrition every day it seems, and there is so much to be learned still!.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:23 AM   #8
Laura Kurth
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

Unless you are being super anal with measurements, 18 blocks will probably land you not too far off 1g protein per lb of lean mass. I mean, they say a block is 7g protein, but the chart has one ounce of cooked meat as one block, which can actually be more like 8-9g protein. Also, there is hidden protein in your vegetables, and nuts if you eat them for fat.

I think 18 blocks at 2x fat is a great start. If in 2 - 4 weeks you have not seen any progress you can tinker with it.

The most important thing is to stick with it for a couple of weeks at least before making assumptions or changes. It takes time to see changes, a big mistake people make is to get impatient and start changing things at random etc. without giving them time to work.

18 blocks at 2x fat should give you about 2500 calories, that is a good place to start for a 215 pound man trying to drop a few pounds of body fat IMO.

Good luck! Get your veggies!
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Old 04-30-2009, 10:25 AM   #9
Adam Rosner
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Re: BtGB, zone, and protein requirements

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Originally Posted by Laura Kurth View Post
Unless you are being super anal with measurements, 18 blocks will probably land you not too far off 1g protein per lb of lean mass. I mean, they say a block is 7g protein, but the chart has one ounce of cooked meat as one block, which can actually be more like 8-9g protein. Also, there is hidden protein in your vegetables, and nuts if you eat them for fat.

I think 18 blocks at 2x fat is a great start. If in 2 - 4 weeks you have not seen any progress you can tinker with it.

The most important thing is to stick with it for a couple of weeks at least before making assumptions or changes. It takes time to see changes, a big mistake people make is to get impatient and start changing things at random etc. without giving them time to work.

18 blocks at 2x fat should give you about 2500 calories, that is a good place to start for a 215 pound man trying to drop a few pounds of body fat IMO.

Good luck! Get your veggies!
Thanks for the conformation! I'm going to start with this, and go from there. I'm used to ketogenic diets, and so a zone diet with x2 fat and mostly veggies actually seems a little bit relaxed to me. I have to think more like an athlete and less like a body builder trying to "cut" (even saying that makes me shudder). Thanks again!
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