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Nutrition Diet, supplements, weightloss, health & longevity

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Old 04-01-2004, 02:55 PM   #1
Neill S. Occhiogrosso
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Just when I was getting comfortable with the concepts behind the paleo diet, and the various carb-reducing diets and their influence on insulin, something new comes along.

What are the basic rules and science to combining, separating and "scheduling" macronutrients throughout the day?

If anybody has any good insight or links to reading on this subject, I'd really appreciate them.

Thanks!
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:50 PM   #2
Scott Kustes
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http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...sseating_2.htm

This article in particular discusses protein/carb meals and protein/fat meals. I have read alot of the stuff on Berardi's site and it seems up to snuff.
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:05 AM   #3
Paul Kayley
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Neill, My decision to seperate fats intake from proteins and carbs is not borne out of advice from any reputable research... I'm just experimenting. I'm also playing about with calorie recording to increase my awareness/understanding of what I'm taking in in relation to expenditure. I then use body composition, exercise performance, rate of recovery, and quality of sleep as gauges of whats best for me. The reality is that we're all different and it takes a bit of 'over-enthusiasm' (measuring food etc is not normal!) to really figure out whats best for you.

I'll report back if I find some interesting results.
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:24 AM   #4
bill fox
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NOT FLAMING OR TRYING TO BE AN *** - REALLY.

This stuff scares me a little. What is the goal of this level of dietary manipulation. It's not body comp - you can attain excellent bodycomp without this level of "attention". It's not performance - same thing.

Very interesting I guess in and of itself, but a little alarm always goes off when I see stuff like this. Diet "obsession" as a thing independant of a performance related goal can lead down some negative roads. I've seen it more then a couple times in 20 years of being a trainer.

I hope this doesn't **** anyone off , and it's not an accusation - just a little nudge from one of the older guys.

Bill
www.movingcenterfitness.com
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Old 04-02-2004, 06:54 AM   #5
Paul Kayley
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Thanks Bill, no offence taken and the 'nudge' is welcome, especially if it helps to avoid my posts being misinterpreted.

My motivation is for self-educational purposes and experimentation rather than being driven by an unhealthy 'obsessiveness' with eating-disorder potential, which I believe you may be alluding to. I have found that when doing a high volume of training, it is difficult to get the right balance of energy intake in relation to expenditure.

This approach is just a temporary means of avoiding too much unintentional deprivation while providing for lean growth and aerobic development, while at the same time it helps to achieve a slight and healthy deficit. My entire fat-burning deficit is achieved from exercise-induced lipolysis, rather than by inducing catabolic stress through restricting basal energy requirements. For example, in an average week of training I can expend 12000 Kcals above basal energy requirements. When training this much cascading catabolism and the valley of fatigue are always just around the corner, getting the balance right is a fine art. It is very easy to under feed this sort of deficit, while at the same time it is even easier to over feed this deficit by guessing and eating too much carb or fat, while neglecting to eat enough protein.

One of the main problems faced by many endurance athletes, and I suppose many other athletes training at the edge for maximum development, is a that it is difficult to gauge how much of each macronutrient to consume in order to offset catabolism, fuel anabolism, while avoiding getting fat. If you are training less, and to be frank far more hormonally intelligent, you will have the luxury of more time between workouts to allow more healthy and gradual recovery. Unfortunately, although GREAT, my sport is not very hormonally intelligent!

If you look at the middle- and back-of-packers at triathlons, you'll see a lot of surprisingly squidgey athletes, even though they are burning a lot of calories each week. This is probably down to blindly rushing to restock the regularly depleted carbohydrate stores without a good concept of how much or how fast this CHO needs to be replaced, as well as combining the carbs too often with fats. It is getting this balance right, while providing all the right 'essentials' for basal and growth requirements that I am trying to quantify.

I know that my sport is probably bipolar to crossfit on the 'hormonal intelligence' continuum, however I believe that at least some of the nutritional techniques should cross over into other folk's training styles.

So yes, you are right it is slightly worrying, but I am not recommending it for mass participation. Also, 'You are what you eat' and if my diet appears weird then it must be about right!


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Old 04-02-2004, 07:28 AM   #6
bill fox
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Paul

Taken exactly as intended, which is why this a great board. Your comment about Tris as opposed to crossfit is astute. Given the Crossfit Foundations tris would would definitely be considered "extreme". My 20-40 minute daily circuits are simpler to recover from.

A thought. Obviously if you start from the "old school" high carb diet and go to a more modern approach you get a big performance boost - that's what really happened when Sears came out with the Zone - even most athlete's half baked approach gave them a huge boost in leaness and muscle. I was one of them.

Given the complexity of the human system, hormonal balance, rest, mood, training load, stress - I think there is a tipping point beyond which PERCIEVED incremental effects of diet manipulation are outweighed by the "cost".

Obviously you're aware of the edginess of what you're doing, and your sense of humor about it shows you've got it in perspective. In fact my post wasn't even so much "aimed" at you as the last few days discussion.

Just wanted to inject a liitle "nudge" - I really can't think of a better word - caution is too strong, and presumptive. Have fun with it, and keep reporting.

Bill
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:36 AM   #7
Paul Kayley
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Cheers Bill.:happy:
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:34 AM   #8
Neill S. Occhiogrosso
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Thanks for the responses.

Bill & Paul:

I think I understand where both of you are coming from (on the issue of dietary manipulation). I'm not looking to count everything that I eat, but I would like to monitor calories for a few days, to get some idea of "where I'm at".

I intend to improve body composition without an obsessive level of attention, but it's hard to know where any of my attention should be focused, with only very rough guesses about my intake.
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Old 04-02-2004, 10:06 AM   #9
Paul Kayley
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Knowing how many carb calories as well as, and in relation to, total calories can point out where you might be going wrong.

I dont believe NHE was entirely right to recommend absolutely no calorie counting.... I believe that when combined with intelligent food grouping/seperation and personal tuning, it is an invaluable aspect of learning about your individual macronutrient requirements.

I suppose these authors have to be careful not to appear too complicated, nor to encourage over-fastidious eating habits which might lead to eating disorders and potential litigation.

It can be a pain in the posterior, but if you can be bothered it helps you to gauge your diet.

I think nutritionists sometimes ask new clients to record all their meals with weights, etc.... for the same reason... to check for imbalance, deficiencies, and over-indulgence.
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Old 04-02-2004, 10:22 AM   #10
Robert Wolf
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This is an interesting situation!

Bills point is exemplified by Coach’s' recommendation to: "eat meat, veggies, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar". Just doing this, regardless of proportions consumed will get one 90-95% of the way to optimized nutrition.

For some folks just being aware of what foods constitute carbs, protein and fat is a big education and chore. I think the food counting a helpful to give one an initial idea of how much food goes into Xg of protein, carb and fat. It is true however that for the OCD individual this might be throwing gas on the fire. Good stuff!
Robb
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