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Old 03-03-2006, 08:58 AM   #1
Allen Yeh
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Hey everyone,

I received my KB in the mail last week and have started to workout with it.

So far I have done:
Swings - 1 and 2 handed
Cleans - 1 arm
strict press - 1 arm
windmill
pass between the legs drill
front squats
OHS squats
snatches

Starting the snatches was rough with the forearm cracking but after some instruction with Tom at Crossfit DC, I think I'm doing better.

The other day I was snatching and after a few reps I could feel my shoulder clicking, no pain associated but have any of you ever "heard" a joint moving? I tried searching around the Dragondoor forum and read a few things that may or may not help. I wanted to tap into everyone's knowledge here at with any thoughts /suggestions.

Things suggested on dragondoor that may or may not help:
-shoulder joints are being pulled tight because of a triggerpoint on my neck/trap
-Muscular imbalance in shoulder girdle between front and back.
-improper tracking of tendon

A little background on my shoulders:
I've never had them dislocated or any injury such as that. I did use to do the old bodybuilding style routine BUT I was very careful to not do insane amounts of bench press without doing rows/pulls also. That leads me away from the imbalance theory but it might still be the case.
Other times I have noticed the clicking would be benching on an incline, pushups (rarely), swimming freestyle stroke.

I've been following Crossfit for close to year now and currently amd doing a blend of Crossfit and OLAD (snatch, deadlift).

Thanks for any advice/help.
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:08 AM   #2
Jason Carriveau
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Look at biceps tendonitis or labral tear of the shoulder.
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Old 03-03-2006, 03:31 PM   #3
Mike Griffith
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Allen,
Often when you hear that clicking it is a tendon that moves off the bursa. A bursa is a little sack filled with fluid that "cushions" the tendons when they glide over bony structures. You usually feel it more than hear it but you can have both. Nothing much to worry about. One word of caution I nor anyone else knows enough about what is going on with you to perscribe treatment. If you feel that you have an injury get it checked out.
Griff
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Old 03-03-2006, 05:03 PM   #4
Garrett Smith
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Allen,
Contrary to popular BBing wisdom, "balancing" bench pressing with rows/pulls does not balance the shoulder girdle. I made the same mistake before myself.

Both the lats and the pecs function to internally rotate the humerus. What muscles are we training with benching and rowing? You know. From http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/articles/scni20a1.htm:

Internal rotation is produced by the scapularis, pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi and teres major. Range of motion is affected by tension or restrictions of the external rotators (infraspinatus and teres minor).

This is the reason one sees so many BBers with what I call "monkey posture", their palms facing rearward in normal posture and their shoulders internally rotated. This is the problem with isolation training, even with good intentions, something is bound to be screwed up and thrown "out of balance". Note that all of the exercises in which you have noticed the clicking involve internal rotation of the shoulder.

With proper posture, while relaxed in standing position, one should be able to see daylight between their thumb and index finger looking in a mirror straight ahead. If this is not the case, there is a likely imbalance in the shoulder rotators. Poor shoulder flexibility (OHS, dislocates) is likely present as well due to the weakness of the external rotators creating an inability to track the shoulder properly.

Note Mike's point. Now look at this page for the "Empty Can Test". See any general similarities to the KB snatch movement in terms of the humerus? The imbalance of the shoulder rotators causes poor tracking of the glenohumeral complex and one ends up with a benign "click" d/t the reasons Mike stated. If this is not dealt with, it will likely become much more problematic in the future.

My suggestions would be:
--drop the snatches for a while
--ditch any and all direct chest work (bench mainly)
--keep up the WOD
--do lots of overhead work (handstands, OHS, shoulder dislocates with a JS band)
--start/continue on the gymnastics arm balance progressions (planche, L-sit, etc.)

By doing all of these, your shoulder muscles will regain their proper balance and the clicking should go away.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:13 PM   #5
Allen Yeh
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Dr. G,

Drop KB and Oly snatches?

would shoulder dislocates with a wooden dowel/PVC be acceptable as well?

Yes I have to hit the gymnastic stuff harder.

Thanks for the information.

Also was there supposed to be another link for the "empty can test" the first link doesn't have anything on that test. I googled it and found a page but perhaps you have a better link describing it? Thanks again.
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Old 03-03-2006, 07:22 PM   #6
Allen Yeh
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Mike,

Thanks, yeah I don't have any pain, but I was thinking it might be an imbalance or something wasn't tracking correctly. I have been putting thoughts into seeing a specialist also.

Thanks again for the information.
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:40 PM   #7
Tom Corrigan
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Alleh,

some things to try if you want to snatch a KB.
First, try doing a one handed swings to just over your head. But let the handle rotate (thumbs up) at about a 45 degree angle as it passes your chest level. As it goes down, let it rotate back to neutral (palm down) as it passes your waist, then it tilts down at 45 degrees (thumb side) as it goes between your leg. So, if you're swinging right handed, you will turn the handle 90 degrees clockwise as it goes up and conter-clockwise as it comes down.

Can you do that w/o pain? If so, you may be able to snatch. This rotation could allow you to do it w/o impinging your shoulder.

To finish the snatch, bend the arm as you swing, then punch thru as you follow thru. When you are locked out overhead, keep your handle angled at 45 degrees.

Good luck,

Tom
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Old 03-04-2006, 06:32 AM   #8
Garrett Smith
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Allen,
Try Tom's suggestions on the KB snatch. Remember, that's a technique change that may avoid the symptom (clicking) while not necessarily attacking the problem (muscular imbalance). Personally, if I was in your situation, I'd try substituting for exercises with a lot of internal rotation for a while, doing more gymnastics stuff, then coming back to the "problem" exercises.

Or, you could just train through it. This second option could possibly result in more wear and tear, you likely would still become more balanced in the process though. It could also take longer due to unconscious adjustments to your technique in order to avoid the cracking and potential beneath-perception-level pain.

Your choice. Sorry about forgetting the link earlier, here it is: http://www.clinicalsportsmedicine.com/chapters/14d.htm .
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Old 03-07-2006, 09:29 AM   #9
Allen Yeh
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Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I think I'm going to lay off the chest stuff as Dr. G suggested and look into strengthening my rotator cuff. I tried the empty can test and I definitely feel a bit of a pang when pushing against resistance.

I've looked around at a couple of webpages and I've found some suggestions. Any that you know of would be welcome also. I've read pretty much high reps, but no guidelines on how many "sets" or how often per week.

On a side note reading more about this I realized I may have been experiencing shoulder problems in basic training without even knowing it. I never had a problem with the puhsups but after a while few weeks pain developed in my biceps. I never figured out why my biceps would hurt while pushing and after I left basic I never thought about it again. Hm I think a trip to a specialist might be in my future. I would guess a sports medicine doctor rather than my family doc, any other suggestions on who I might want to see? You have to see a doctor before you can go to a physical therapist right? What about massage specialists? I saw one thread talking about ART?





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Old 03-07-2006, 12:05 PM   #10
Garrett Smith
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Allen,
I don't use nor recommend the typical isolation rotator cuff exercises.

I'd suggest you continue with the WODs, adding some KB overhead walks in a figure-8 pattern and KB Turkish Get-Ups. Some Z-Health, Rolfing, ART, and/or Neuromuscular Therapy may speed up the process as well.

If you go to most doctors and PTs without some obvious direct pathology going on (a clicking in your shoulder ain't it), I've noticed that most have no idea where to begin. It was mainly through your workout history being similar to mine in the past that I feel relatively comfortable in what is going on and how it might be repaired.
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