CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Exercises
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-25-2011, 08:28 PM   #21
Pär Larsson
Member Pär Larsson is offline
 
Pär Larsson's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: San Diego  CA
Posts: 178
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

Well, Katherine -

HQ and others, myself included (see http://vimeo.com/13351852 SFW) keep putting out media, video esp. of really cool looking people doing really awesome things.

You really can't help but want to be a little like these people. I'd like to be able to do proper butterfly pullups. I'd like to be able to do handstand walks and HSPUs - even though I see very little functional fitness benefits to any of the three.

We put these people on a pedestal, and by doing so when it involves things that are simply a bit out there medically/training-wise, we're setting the CrossFit community up to take a big hit when we're proven wrong. I don't think butterfly pullups or high-repetition (i.e., 100+ straight in a single workout) kipping pullups have been proven medically unsafe - but I think that's where it's headed.

You can't expect affiliate owners and still wet-behind-the-ears trainers like myself to know to stop people from doing butterfly pullups too soon, or too many kipping pullups in a row when they're tired - in things like the Open, or in regular happy-fun competition - when all people see in videos is someone rocking out a set of super-fast 30 butterflies.

Not good situation. Not cool. People are gonna get unnecessarily hurt from taking unnecessary risks. Not healthy. 3 weeks off to deal with an injury is bad, bad news. Kind of like ripping your hands up in the pursuit of one more pullup, but I digress. I *really* digress. SFW
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2011, 08:48 PM   #22
Stephen Flamm
Affiliate Stephen Flamm is offline
 
Stephen Flamm's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cincinnati  OH
Posts: 511
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

A balanced, strong shoulder/scap in a trained athlete can handle high-volume kipping of any variety. As a trainer, the key is understanding that most of your clients will not fall into this category. Learning to properly assess and write a prescription for shoulder/scap strength and stability goes a long way toward preventing shoulder (and elbow) injuries...
__________________
www.cincinnatistrength.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2011, 09:14 PM   #23
Katherine Derbyshire
Member Katherine Derbyshire is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Seattle  WA
Posts: 7,596
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
You can't expect affiliate owners and still wet-behind-the-ears trainers like myself to know to stop people from doing butterfly pullups too soon, or too many kipping pullups in a row when they're tired - in things like the Open, or in regular happy-fun competition - when all people see in videos is someone rocking out a set of super-fast 30 butterflies.
Why not? If I'm paying $150-$200+/month in affiliate fees, it seems to me that programming that won't injure me is the *minimum* I should expect.

And a serious shoulder injury will cost the athlete a lot more than three weeks off.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2011, 09:28 PM   #24
Aushion Chatman
Affiliate Aushion Chatman is offline
 
Aushion Chatman's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Diego  CA
Posts: 3,342
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

There's no secrets IMO. Nor does anything really need to be banned. I think it really just boils down to:

1) Understanding progressions - Generally do Maximal strength + Fixing Imbalances + Mobility work prior to Dynamic strength work. Introduce dynamic strength at a relative pace for each client.

2) Understanding the risk of high volume - Pay attn to your programming...have a plan or goal with your programming for your clients.

3) Having an environment where tweaks & aches are routinely talked about between trainers and clients. - This goes along with 2), you need feedback from your clients on your programming...otherwise you'll have no idea how folks are handling your programming, until someone tells you they want to suspend their membership for 2 weeks because their shoulder feels "funky".
__________________
My Youtube Channel
CFSD Yelp
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2011, 06:24 AM   #25
Anson Castelvecchi
Member Anson Castelvecchi is offline
 
Anson Castelvecchi's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Salisbury  NC
Posts: 340
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
It also depends on the type of kipping.

"Butterfly" kips are WAY more ballistic and when done correctly have your shoulder joint go from unloaded to SLAMMED down into a loaded position. This is just terrible for your shoulders and WILL injure them over time, period.

A traditional kipping pull-up, after sufficient dead-hang strength has been established (5-10 deadhangs minimum) should involved the athlete maintaining tension in the joint and thus be reasonably safe. The problem with these is people let their bodies go all loosy goosy at the bottom and hyperextend their shoulders. But a good, tightly preformed, traditional kip with adequate strength developed first is pretty safe IMO.

Muscles ups should never be kipped.
I agree. Stay tight and don't let your body crash down, and listen to what you're body is telling you about the movement. The kip should not be done by weaker people, ever. Get ape strong on pullups first!
__________________
Silverback Strength Equipment http://www.facebook.com/pages/Silver...017667?ref=sgm
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2011, 09:33 AM   #26
Rob Bousquet
Affiliate Rob Bousquet is offline
 
Rob Bousquet's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Greenville  SC
Posts: 165
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

Am I the only one that thinks kipping pull ups are being picked on? For me I have much more shoulder pain in the overhead squat postion while no pain in the shoulder during kips. To say most everyone should not do kips unless you are an elite sounds wrong to me. I am not elite but my #s and strength don't suck either. Except overhead and front squat!
Just about every movement we do when put in a timed competition has potential for injury. Also, it's not like if you are an elite athlete you will not get injured.
I know this is a bunch of random thoughts but it comes down to this for me: 1. If you take everything out that is a "high rate of injury" there will not be much left and 2. Are these gyms doing Crossfit if they are actually doing SS or whatever strength bias programing?
That leads me to the most common response I get when I tell people they should try Crossfit is "You have to be fit to Crossfit."
__________________
"Whether you think you can or can't, you are right." -Henry Ford
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2011, 09:42 AM   #27
Ash Smith
Member Ash Smith is offline
 
Ash Smith's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Birmingham  AL
Posts: 138
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

I use something like the butterfly kip almost exclusively (when kipping is warranted). However, I should note that I'm coming from a pre-CF background that had lots of strict and semi-strict pullups, so I'm not "working my way up to a pullup"--I'm simply adapting to increase the speed in metcons.

Before I knew what to call it, I simply called it a cheater pullup. Pull your knees up quickly to generate momentum, then use the upper body for the last half of the movement. However, I lower in a much more controlled fashion, probably 2-3x the amount of time the concentric portion requires (still quick, but controlled). There is no violent, sudden loading of the shoulder at the bottom, and my center of gravity moves in almost a perfectly vertical fashion. No arc or swing involved.

The proper kip so common to CF wears me out quicker than deadhangs--usually my hands give out first, but I feel a lot more shoulder fatigue, too. It's just too much time on the bar for me. Everyone is built differently, so YMMV, but I'm just as scared of high-rep swinging kips as I am of high-rep snatches or the like. Fatigue is not your friend when you're trying to keep up technique, cadence, and momentum in a complicated movement like that. FWIW, I've never had a lifting injury that wasn't related to pressing (usually rotator cuff). Pulling has always been very safe for me.
__________________
32/m/6'2"/198#; training his 1-year-old with Pullups
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2011, 10:04 AM   #28
Daniel Sont
Member Daniel Sont is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ottawa  ON Canada
Posts: 77
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

This isn't stoppin me from kippin mah pullups!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2011, 09:58 AM   #29
Paul Coplin
Member Paul Coplin is offline
 
Paul Coplin's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Beaverton  OR
Posts: 66
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Bousquet View Post
Am I the only one that thinks kipping pull ups are being picked on? For me I have much more shoulder pain in the overhead squat postion while no pain in the shoulder during kips. To say most everyone should not do kips unless you are an elite sounds wrong to me.

I agree. Doing anything high rep when you're not strong enough to handle it is dangerous.

I cased myself acromioclavicular degeneration from too many overhead exercises (thruster, push press, etc.). Caused me to have to get surgery. Just happens sometimes I think.
__________________
M | 30 | 5'10 | 190
Omnis cedo domus
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2011, 01:35 PM   #30
Pearse Shields
Member Pearse Shields is offline
 
Pearse Shields's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Palmerston  New Zealand
Posts: 1,798
Re: Looking for evidence that kipping pullups do or do not cause shoulder injuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Bousquet View Post
Am I the only one that thinks kipping pull ups are being picked on? For me I have much more shoulder pain in the overhead squat postion while no pain in the shoulder during kips. To say most everyone should not do kips unless you are an elite sounds wrong to me. I am not elite but my #s and strength don't suck either. Except overhead and front squat!
Just about every movement we do when put in a timed competition has potential for injury. Also, it's not like if you are an elite athlete you will not get injured.
I know this is a bunch of random thoughts but it comes down to this for me: 1. If you take everything out that is a "high rate of injury" there will not be much left and 2. Are these gyms doing Crossfit if they are actually doing SS or whatever strength bias programing?
That leads me to the most common response I get when I tell people they should try Crossfit is "You have to be fit to Crossfit."
The fact that your OHS is weak and that you also get pain when you do it are probably related. I've no real way of knowing, but it could be due to incorrect form, or needing to strengthen your shoulders a bit.
__________________
If it had parents, eat it till you're full My YouTube
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Subbing Dead Hang Pullups for Kipping Pullups Ryan Whitley Fitness 56 04-24-2009 03:17 PM
What's the Evidence that Kipping Pullups Makes you Better at Deadhangs? Stuart Buck Exercises 31 07-23-2008 08:43 PM
Shoulder stability in kipping pullups Craig Brown Exercises 9 02-26-2008 07:12 AM
Shoulder pain with kipping pullups Eric Cimrhanzel Injuries 14 01-20-2006 11:39 PM
Sharp shoulder pain when doing kipping pullups Eric Cimrhanzel Injuries 1 10-21-2005 06:12 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.