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Old 08-30-2010, 10:30 AM   #21
Darla Powell
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Re: Triceps

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Originally Posted by Meghan Waldeck View Post
Isolation mentality argh.

I see what you're asking though. I would say ring dips are amazing for your entire arm, chest and shoulders.
I did some of those today
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:48 AM   #22
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Triceps

Meghan

anti isolationists. There are few bad excersizes, though there are host of bad programs. Skull crushers, push downs, curls, hammer curls etc all have their place in training. THe problem is most people don't know what that place is, so you get the people that curl for 45 minutes and then you get people that won't use single joint excersizes ever. Both are poor ways to approach programming and training.

Ask if something gets you closer to your goals. Then ask if it is a reasonablly efficient way of getting there. Then you will have your answer. If you can't answer those questions, you should probably just be doing the big compound lifts anyway.
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:49 AM   #23
Ben Clark
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Re: Triceps

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Originally Posted by Eric A. Brown View Post
The elbow is still extending.
It's not extending against much resistance.
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:57 AM   #24
Ben Clark
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Re: Triceps

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
The opposite is the case.

In a Shoulder Press, HSPU, Bench Press, Dip, etc., if your forearms are vertical, your triceps are contributing more and your medial delts are contributing less. When you flair your elbows out, you're using more medial delts.
HSPU and dip are more complicated because balancing constraints force certain angles.

Assume bench with elbows in and the bar comes down to your nipple line. Your forearms will be 'vertical' if looked at from along your body line. Looked at from the side they will be far from vertical. To get your forearms truly vertical in both planes you have to lower the bar lower than your chest,to your solar plexus or even abdomen depending on proportions. Then it's almost entirely a front delt exercise.
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:10 AM   #25
Eric A. Brown
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Re: Triceps

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Originally Posted by Ben Clark View Post
HSPU and dip are more complicated because balancing constraints force certain angles.

Assume bench with elbows in and the bar comes down to your nipple line. Your forearms will be 'vertical' if looked at from along your body line. Looked at from the side they will be far from vertical. To get your forearms truly vertical in both planes you have to lower the bar lower than your chest,to your solar plexus or even abdomen depending on proportions. Then it's almost entirely a front delt exercise.
When benching to the nipple line, my forearms are vertical. So are those of practically every other bench press I have seen in judging quite a few meets. And regardless of where you lower the bar to, the function of the muscle itself does not change:

"The Triceps brachii is the great extensor muscle of the forearm, and is the direct antagonist of the Biceps brachii and Brachialis. When the arm is extended, the long head of the muscle may assist the Teres major and Latissimus dorsi in drawing the humerus backward and in adducting it to the thorax. The long head supports the under part of the shoulder-joint. The Subanconĉus draws up the synovial membrane of the elbow-joint during extension of the forearm."

As long as the forearm is extending under tension, the tricep is active, and active in its primary role.

As to grip width actually playing a role:

Effect of Grip Width on the Myoelectric Activity of the Prime Movers in the Bench Press

Clemons, James M.; Aaron, Chantelle


Abstract


The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of grip width on myoelectric activity of the pectoralis major, anterior deltoid, triceps brachii, and biceps brachii during a 1-RM bench press. Grip widths of 100,130,165, and 190% (G1, 2, 3, 4, respectively) of biacromial breadth were used. Mean integrated myoelectric activity for each muscle and at each grip width was determined for the concentric portion of each 1-RM and normalized to percentages of max volitional isometric contractions (%MVIC). Data analysis employed a one-factor (grip width) univariate repeated measures ANOVA. Results indicated significant main effects for both grip width (p = 0.022) and muscles (p = 0.0001). Contrast analyses were conducted on both main effects. Significant differences (p <= 0.05) were found between grip widths G4 and both Gl and G2 relative to %MVIC. Significant %MVIC differences on the muscles main effect were also found. All prime movers registered significantly greater %MVICs than the biceps and, in addition, the triceps %MVIC was greater than the pectoralis major.
(C) 1997 National Strength and Conditioning Association
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Old 08-30-2010, 01:35 PM   #26
Ben Clark
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Re: Triceps

I'm not arguing against the standard wisdoms. I'm taking the analysis a level deeper and telling you why they turn out to be true.

Quote:
When benching to the nipple line, my forearms are vertical.
So are mine if my elbows are flared out about 45 degrees. If my elbows are brushing my sides and the forearms are vertical then the bar hits several inches lower on my chest/abdomen. I could be a freak. I'm not a coach. I've only worked these things out on myself.

The tricep is doing elbow extension as I sit here and flap my unloaded arm around. The question is how much resistance is applied to that extension.

Look at it the other way around. How much work does the biceps/brachialis have to do to flex the elbow in a bent row with the forearm vertical? ZERO!! You could cut off the forearm and run a cable from the elbow to the weight and still do the exercise.

The tricep only has to do ANY work in a forearm vertical press because our balance isn't perfect and we have to continually correct. That and with anything besides dumbbells it's not possible to keep the forearm completely vertical through the entire motion.
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Old 08-30-2010, 01:53 PM   #27
Dan Andrews
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Re: Triceps

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Originally Posted by John Stone View Post
^^^^^

There is nothing wrong with using a false grip as a part of strength training.

If we ruled out any exercise of which we could find a youtube video of someone doing it wrong and getting hurt, there'd be no exercises to do.

To quote Dave "To use a loose false grip, is not a proper false grip, it's being stupid and being an idiot."
He also says in the video "The false grip is not for beginners, it is for advanced lifters". Seeing as probably no one here is an advanced lifter, atleast the vast majority of us aren't, it is something you probably should not recommend unless you know that person is an advanced lifter.
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:03 PM   #28
Eric A. Brown
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Re: Triceps

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Originally Posted by Ben Clark View Post
I'm not arguing against the standard wisdoms. I'm taking the analysis a level deeper and telling you why they turn out to be true.
No, you are making an assertion which disputes solid science, as well as the experience of millions of athletes and coaches, and failing to support it.


Quote:
So are mine if my elbows are flared out about 45 degrees. If my elbows are brushing my sides and the forearms are vertical then the bar hits several inches lower on my chest/abdomen. I could be a freak. I'm not a coach. I've only worked these things out on myself.
And it hits lower? Big deal. Less opening of the acromioclavicular joint, which is never a bad thing.

Quote:
The tricep is doing elbow extension as I sit here and flap my unloaded arm around. The question is how much resistance is applied to that extension.
Of course. Work is often load dependent.

Quote:
Look at it the other way around. How much work does the biceps/brachialis have to do to flex the elbow in a bent row with the forearm vertical? ZERO!!
Odd, EMG analysis says otherwise. Interestingly enough, muscles fibers are only activated on an as-needed basis. I guess the spindles are activating for no good reason.


Quote:
You could cut off the forearm and run a cable from the elbow to the weight and still do the exercise.
You could, but with less weight, as the biceps contribute to the totality of the compound exercise.

Quote:
The tricep only has to do ANY work in a forearm vertical press because our balance isn't perfect and we have to continually correct. That and with anything besides dumbbells it's not possible to keep the forearm completely vertical through the entire motion.
Where do you get this? It is a basic function of anatomy that the function of the triceps is to extend the forearm? Clearly documented in the all-new Gray's Anatomy, first published about a 100 years ago. We do not even need to go into the biomechanics of it.

Why are you so resistant to something that has been an established aspect of science for so long?

FWIW, in terms of MVIC (Maximal Voluntary Isometric Contraction) the triceps is the muscle most activated, as measured by EMG (electromyographical analysis) out of the following, in descending order: Triceps, anterior deltoid, pectoralis major, and then some minor activation of the latissimus dorsai and biceps when benching. A muscle is not going to be so heavily recruited as to be the most taxed out of every muscle in the kinetic chain just to stabilize a weight. It is functioning as the primary agonist.

Would you like me to post studies? Link you to models of joint function and articulation? I can, when I get home.
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:56 PM   #29
Ben Clark
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Re: Triceps

You're right that I can't think of any other way to support the claim that a vertical forearm puts very little stress on the tricep and that the effective load increases as the forearm inclines toward the horizontal. I'm not prepared to write a proof that gravity works downwards either.

It should be almost equally obvious that opening the elbow angle through a series of positions that each put little stress on the tricep should not be loading the tricep very much.

The book of MRI studies I have shows the tricep working much less hard in a db press than in a close grip bench press.

Are you actually saying that every exercise that involves arm extension works the triceps equally hard??????

All the powerlifters who have done a tricep specific exercise because competition benches didn't develop them enough were wasting their time?

I can do shoulder width benches dropping the bar to my sternum and feel nothing in my triceps and a ton in my delts. If I drop the bar to my clavicles my triceps burn and my delts get a break. That is consistent with some elementary mechanical analysis. It would take a heluva pile of studies to convince me that combination is wrong.
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Old 08-30-2010, 05:10 PM   #30
Eric A. Brown
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Re: Triceps

<sigh>

Is responding to multiple straw-men the electronic equivalent of tilting at windmills?

Nevertheless:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Clark View Post
You're right that I can't think of any other way to support the claim that a vertical forearm puts very little stress on the tricep and that the effective load increases as the forearm inclines toward the horizontal. I'm not prepared to write a proof that gravity works downwards either.
I provided support for my claims. Fairly simple, really. And gravity does not work in one direction.

Quote:
It should be almost equally obvious that opening the elbow angle through a series of positions that each put little stress on the tricep should not be loading the tricep very much.
Obvious to who? The function of the triceps remains the same, despite your refusal to understand said function. I can link you to anatomy and biomech. texts online if you wish. You really do need to read them.

Quote:
The book of MRI studies I have shows the tricep working much less hard in a db press than in a close grip bench press.
Yes.
1. Less weight is used when using DBs.
2. A greater percentage of relative effort is spent stabilizing the DB's which is not as necessary when utilizing a bar, and said bar allows greater work over a similar ROM.
3. As a general rule, the close grip bench activates the triceps more than both DB bench and BB bench, despite your claims earlier that grip width did not matter (or something similar, cannot be bother to look through your numerous unsupported claims). This is generally a simple function of greater ROM forcing a larger degree of . . .

wait for it . . .

Extension of the forearm. Guess which muscle does this?


Quote:
Are you actually saying that every exercise that involves arm extension works the triceps equally hard??????
I never said anything remotely like that.


Quote:
All the powerlifters who have done a tricep specific exercise because competition benches didn't develop them enough were wasting their time?
Nor did I say anything like this. Yet for some strange reason, I will respond despite you ignoring pretty much everything I post to make unsupported assertions and straw man arguments.

There are multiple ways to develop strength, and like many of my fellow PL'ers, I do triceps specific work for a variety of reasons:
1. Diminishing returns. Simply grinding away at the bench sometimes results in running up against fatigue, mechanical limits, or simple burn out.
2. On some other exercises I can get an even greater ROM (hint: greater degree of forearm extension).
3. Can train in different rep ranges depending on what my goals are for the day, where I am in my training micro- and meso-cycles, etc.
4. Variety keeps me from getting bored.


Quote:
I can do shoulder width benches dropping the bar to my sternum and feel nothing in my triceps and a ton in my delts. If I drop the bar to my clavicles my triceps burn and my delts get a break. That is consistent with some elementary mechanical analysis. It would take a heluva pile of studies to convince me that combination is wrong.
Well, of course what you feel trumps anatomy and biomechanics, and everyone should base their training on your recommendations because of how you feel.

And no, that is not consistent with any sort of mechanical analysis. You clearly have no idea how one of those works either.

I am through wasting time with you, it is clear you refuse to acknowledge anything that disagrees with your assertions, and to everyone else whose time I may have wasted, I apologize.
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