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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 04-04-2005, 11:08 AM   #11
Travis Hall
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i was just curious: why isn't there a video of the kipping pull-up in the exercise section?
there is only a video of the static pullup- even though it seems no one on the site is a fan?!

especially considering there seems to be so many questions concerning the kip. wouldn't they be more easily answered visually?
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Old 04-04-2005, 11:25 AM   #12
Brian Gibson
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Travis,

Here is a video of Annie and Cill performing kipping pull-ups. A LOT of pull-ups mind you. :happy:

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-video/pull-up_7.wmv
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Old 04-04-2005, 11:53 AM   #13
Travis Hall
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hey thanks brian- thats great. not to mention impressive!
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Old 04-04-2005, 12:51 PM   #14
Frank C Ollis
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Michael,
As a case in point:
Several years ago, I was deployed aboard the USS Pearl Harbor, as part of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit (SOC). In one of our attempts to alleviate boredom, we did a "Decathlon for the Cure" to raise money for breast cancer. One of the events was pullups. The rules were "As many pull ups as you can in 5 minutes" It was my last event. I knocked out 167, the closest person to me was a 20 year old with 70 something. Now, in their defense, Marines up until a few years ago, were allowed to kip, and I learned to do it well. Marine Corps Physical Fitness Tests now prohibit kipping, so they never learn.

As a side affect, the dynamic nature of the movement helps to harden and condition the body for contact sports or combat.
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Old 04-04-2005, 04:04 PM   #15
bill fox
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Dave

Interesting. I never saw it put quite that way. I'm assuming Greg does no strict pullups in training. If you were training someone t oincrease pullups w/ 75lbs added from 4 to 8 how would go about it. All kipping? With or without weight primarily? Give me some ideas.
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Old 04-04-2005, 05:14 PM   #16
Joshua F Hillis
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The part of Dave's post that blew my mind:

"As far as Crossfit goes you are missing the point. What we care about above all other things is Power - that is; work divided by time or, equivalently, (Force x distance)/time.

The reason we care about Power more than strength or endurance or even speed, is that power output is what taxes the whole human system - and ellicits a neuroendocrine response. "

If the goal is to tax the whole system, then kipping pullups really do make sense just on the basis of being faster. Grinding strength is an afterthought. Whoa! Totally never got that.

It raises some interesting questions then... so would jumping pullups actually be more beneficial from a CrossFit standpoint because you can do even more faster and it works more muscle groups? I mean how far could you push it?

I guess the question is, how do you find the right strength to power ratio? Like why not jumpstretch band pullups? Or why 95lb thrusters in Fran instead of 65lb thrusters?
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Old 04-04-2005, 05:46 PM   #17
Matt Schwartz
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I think taxing local muscle endurance still has its place in some workouts, and that total power output is not always the overriding goal of a workout. Some exercises like pushups, situps, unweighted squats, dips, etc. are useful in order to strengthen that link in the chain. In that vein, I think strict pullups have a place in the workouts, especially when doing them weighted.
I agree that when going for max pullup reps, or as part of a WOD, the kips are the way to go. But strict pullups can't be declared to have no significant workout value, or we'd be forced to declare other more localized exercise movements like those I just listed above declared invalid as well.

Kipping loses some utility when the goal is to exhaust the upper body pullup muscles rather than work the whole body. Kind of like bench or military press vs. push press. There still is value in the strict approach for working on weak links and for maximal strength development at low reps.

Just to be clear, I still advocate kipping but not all the time.

As an aside, I'd be interested in seeing the numbers of some good kippers comparing their strict pullup numbers with their kipped numbers. A large discrepancy would seem to me that more practice of strict pullups would in order, while a small discrepancy would point out the crossover effect and benefit of training kipping to strict pullups.

Matt
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Old 04-04-2005, 06:32 PM   #18
Pat Janes
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Joshua, the general idea you are getting at with 65# vs 95# thrusters in Fran, was discussed in quite some detail in the March '05 CrossFit Journal "Fooling around with Fran".

After playing with the weights, it was found that Greg Amundson's maximum power output during Fran would be with somewhere between 75 and 95#.

This is likely to be different for other athletes. If you were feeling sufficiently masochistic, you could run the same experiments on yourself and discover your maximum power output for Fran.

I think I'll just stick with 95# and keep doing better than the last time...


I basically kip every time I have a chance. If I'm doing pullups on rings, I don't kip (because it doesn't really work), but otherwise I kip like my life depended on it.
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Old 04-04-2005, 08:48 PM   #19
Matt Schwartz
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Really, kipping doesn't work on rings? All I have to work on is rings and a bar suspended from 2 foot long chains (swings like rings but a shorter arc), and kipping seems to work. Not as well as on a fixed bar but still can do more pullups that way than doing them strict.
Matt
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Old 04-04-2005, 09:45 PM   #20
Eva Twardokens
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As far as the straight line and the curve go in the kipping pull-up vs. the straight, a cycliod curve is proven to be faster, supporting Coach's explanation. If you want to learn more, look up "bachistachone", or "the concept of bachistachrone" and find out how this applies in many movements. It has been a big contoversy in the ski world as it pertains to the skiers line.

"The mathematical solution to the concept of brachistochrone is well known in mathematical circles. It was published by Johan Bernoulli, Isaac Newton, and Gottfried Leibniz, although their techniques for arriving at the solution varied.

Today, virtually every text on classical dynamics or variational calculus deals with the brachistochrone problem in theory, but application of this theory to sports is rare."
-George Twardokens PSIA Skiing Journal
}}}
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