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Old 09-25-2009, 06:54 AM   #501
Darryl Shaw
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Devine View Post
Darryl, you have to admit getting into a 'link to this study' war is pointless. I could just start posting the links to studies referenced in GCBC and we could add another 50 pages pages to this thread debating each study's validity. That would just leave people more confused than ever.
While I'm sure that for every study you plucked from the pages of GCBC I could find something that trumps it from The Manual of Dietetic Practice, Nutrition in Clinical Practice or Clinical Sports Nutrition I agree that it would ultimately be pointless and would in all probabilty lead to further confusion. So lets not do that shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Devine
The fact is I lost 10 lbs in 2 months eating standard zone ratios of 40-30-30. I lost 15 in one month after changing that to strict paleo at 20-30-50. I feel, look, and perform better than I have in over 10 years and at age 47 that is huge.
Well I'm 41 and have maintained a stable weight with an average 5-6% BF for my entire adult life while eating a high-carb (60-70%) plant based diet that's mostly paleo with some elements of Okinawan and Mediterranean diets added for variety. What does that prove? Not much really because it's just anecdotal evidence and as I'm sure you know anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

www.mediterrasian.com

www.okicent.org

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Devine
I sincerely hope that people are not dissuaded from trying paleo or other low carb diets simply because some study you link in your sig calls their benefits into question. We, as in you and me, should be encouraging readers to try different changes to their diet, record their intake and take note of any positive or negative effects until they find what works for them.
Here's my main objection to the paleo diet as followed by most people on this forum; it's based on the mistaken belief that paleo man ate a low-carb high-fat diet. We didn't, we evolved in a carb rich environment where sources of animal fat were scarce so we've eaten a mostly plant based diet throughout most of our history as a species. It's only in our recent history that we've had regular access to animal source foods that were high in fat and where people do have regular access to high fat foods they tend to get fat and develop "diseases of civilization". It's also worth noting that no hunter-gatherer, not even an Inuit, would ever deliberately avoid eating carbohydrates when they were available.

Okay I know I said I wanted to avoid getting into a pointless study war so I apologise for this but I think these two studies are important as they show the evolution of our diet as we went from apes to the slightly smarter apes we are today. Anyway, what these studies show is that although the increased consumption of lean meat did gradually reduce the percentage of CHO in the diets of paleolithic hunter-gatherers their diet was consistantly low in both total and saturated fats.

Study: Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecus Diets.

Review: Paleolithic nutrition revisited: A twelve-year retrospective on its nature and implications.

So the question is this; you say that we should be "encouraging readers to try different changes to their diet" which is reasonable enough but why would I encourage people to adopt a diet that I know to be unnatural for our species and is associated with an increased risk of a number of serious diseases?

*All links WFS*
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Old 09-25-2009, 12:23 PM   #502
John Devine
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Well I'm 41 and have maintained a stable weight with an average 5-6% BF for my entire adult life while eating a high-carb (60-70%) plant based diet that's mostly paleo with some elements of Okinawan and Mediterranean diets added for variety. What does that prove? Not much really because it's just anecdotal evidence and as I'm sure you know anecdotal evidence proves nothing.
It proves everything for the person who is the anecdote!! And this forum, Robb Wolfe's blog, and Melissa Byer's blog, just to name a few, are full of people who have had anecdotal success. The fact that you have not struggled with weight further proves my point. I'm not arguing that everyone should eat paleo. But if your current approach to nutrition isn't working for you, you should try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Here's my main objection to the paleo diet as followed by most people on this forum; it's based on the mistaken belief that paleo man ate a low-carb high-fat diet. We didn't, we evolved in a carb rich environment where sources of animal fat were scarce so we've eaten a mostly plant based diet throughout most of our history as a species. It's only in our recent history that we've had regular access to animal source foods that were high in fat and where people do have regular access to high fat foods they tend to get fat and develop "diseases of civilization". It's also worth noting that no hunter-gatherer, not even an Inuit, would ever deliberately avoid eating carbohydrates when they were available.

Okay I know I said I wanted to avoid getting into a pointless study war so I apologise for this but I think these two studies are important as they show the evolution of our diet as we went from apes to the slightly smarter apes we are today. Anyway, what these studies show is that although the increased consumption of lean meat did gradually reduce the percentage of CHO in the diets of paleolithic hunter-gatherers their diet was consistantly low in both total and saturated fats.

Study: Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecus Diets.

Review: Paleolithic nutrition revisited: A twelve-year retrospective on its nature and implications.
Your own studies don't support your argument. The first study has a table that says between 41%-47% of paleo cals came from carbs. Here are Cordains's numbers -
Quote:
Our analysis (fig. 19.2) of the Ethnographic Atlas data (Gray, 1999) showed that the dominant foods in the majority of historically studied hunter-gatherer diets were derived from animal food sources (Cordain et al., 2000). Most (73%) of the world’s hunters-gatherers obtained >50 percent of their subsistence from hunted and fished animal foods, whereas only 14 percent of worldwide hunter gatherers obtained >50 percent of their subsistence from gathered plant foods. For all 229 hunter-gatherer
societies, the median subsistence dependence on animal foods was 56 percent to 65 percent. In contrast, the median subsistence dependence on gathered plant foods was 26 percent to 35 percent (Cordain et al., 2000).
The claims from the studies are not mutually exclusive and the Paleo Diet is not based on a false claim.

Your study - carbs = 45% (conveniently rounded)
Cordain - Protein and fat = 55% (also conveniently rounded)
Voila - all intake accounted for!

Cordain also repeatedly notes that there are great variances among the macronutrient intake of both paleo and modern HG's.

The data may be interpreted differently and some Paleo advocates such as Robb Wolfe may recommend upping fat and lowering carbs for specific training goals but that doesn't negate the basis of the diet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
So the question is this; you say that we should be "encouraging readers to try different changes to their diet" which is reasonable enough but why would I encourage people to adopt a diet that I know to be unnatural for our species and is associated with an increased risk of a number of serious diseases?

*All links WFS*
Please explain to us the risk of doing a 30 day paleo challenge. Darryl, this is fun and all but, seriously, you are stretching your credibility here.
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Old 09-26-2009, 05:01 AM   #503
Darryl Shaw
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Devine View Post
It proves everything for the person who is the anecdote!! And this forum, Robb Wolfe's blog, and Melissa Byer's blog, just to name a few, are full of people who have had anecdotal success. The fact that you have not struggled with weight further proves my point. I'm not arguing that everyone should eat paleo. But if your current approach to nutrition isn't working for you, you should try it.
The point I was making is that I'm not particularly interested in anecdotal evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Devine
Your own studies don't support your argument. The first study has a table that says between 41%-47% of paleo cals came from carbs. Here are Cordains' numbers -

Quote:
Our analysis (fig. 19.2) of the Ethnographic Atlas data (Gray, 1999) showed that the dominant foods in the majority of historically studied hunter-gatherer diets were derived from animal food sources (Cordain et al., 2000). Most (73%) of the world’s hunters-gatherers obtained >50 percent of their subsistence from hunted and fished animal foods, whereas only 14 percent of worldwide hunter gatherers obtained >50 percent of their subsistence from gathered plant foods. For all 229 hunter-gatherer societies, the median subsistence dependence on animal foods was 56 percent to 65 percent. In contrast, the median subsistence dependence on gathered plant foods was 26 percent to 35 percent (Cordain et al., 2000).
The claims from the studies are not mutually exclusive and the Paleo Diet is not based on a false claim.

Your study - carbs = 45% (conveniently rounded)
Cordain - Protein and fat = 55% (also conveniently rounded)
Voila - all intake accounted for!

Cordain also repeatedly notes that there are great variances among the macronutrient intake of both paleo and modern HG's.

The data may be interpreted differently and some Paleo advocates such as Robb Wolfe may recommend upping fat and lowering carbs for specific training goals but that doesn't negate the basis of the diet.
If you read both those links you'd have noted that fat intake is uniformly low at an estimated 20-25% of toal energy for paleo man and 10.9-27.4 for contemporary African H-G's. As I said before it was an increase in the consumption of lean protein that reduced the percentage of CHO in the diets of paleo man not an increase in fat consumption. As for Cordains numbers the accuracy of the data used from the Ethnographic Atlas is questionable at best for reasons outlined in Katharine Miltons editorial article Hunter-gatherer diets—a different perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Devine
Please explain to us the risk of doing a 30 day paleo challenge. Darryl, this is fun and all but, seriously, you are stretching your credibility here.
I concede that doing this 30 day "paleo" challenge will do little if any harm however that does not mean that I am prepared to encourage people to adopt a diet that I know to be harmful if continued over the long term. Of course my attitude would be different if people wanted to do a 30 day Okinawa diet challenge.....

*All links WFS*

Last edited by Darryl Shaw : 09-26-2009 at 05:09 AM.
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Old 09-26-2009, 02:39 PM   #504
Natalie Dent
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

Hey everyone! I have been following this thread and am on day 26 of the challenge. Just wanted to say that while I have not lost weight, I have lost at least 1 inch around my waist, and also hips. Abs are getting really defined, my husband actually said "your waist is tiny," and has commented on how great my complexion looks. I sleep awesome at night, and my wod's and xfit endurance is going great. I just feel really strong and I am loving it.

I almost don't want the challenge to end because its nice having an excuse to not eat things The challenge worked for me because I really don't like letting myself down if I commit to something, so I am thinking I will stick to eating this way.

I hope everyone else is doing well. Can we keep the arguments for and against paleo out of this thread? If you dont agree with the diet, start another thread.
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Old 09-26-2009, 03:05 PM   #505
Marissa Owens
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

My 30 day challenge ended yesterday. I feel great and will definitely continue eating this way (although I think I'm going to add cheese back into my diet in moderation since it's an easy protein when on the run). I went apple picking this afternoon and turned down a hot, fresh, apple cider donut. A few months ago I never would've turned that down... what's happened to me?!
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Old 09-26-2009, 04:57 PM   #506
Ben Kissam
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

I spent the last 2 days reading all 51 pages of this thread.

I've flirted with the idea of paleo for months. I finally decided to give it a hardcore shot last Monday 9/21 and have only cheated once, which wasn't my fault... I was made a sandwich for lunch that day and I didn't want to argue because the person who made it would've gotten irritated

But I feel great. Absolutely. I beat my PR on Cindy this afternoon. Last time I did it was 17 rds with basically jumping pull ups and today I did 18 with regular pull ups.

Some ideas I've had for food: Buy a package of beef jerky, almonds and dried cranberries. I put it in a container in my closet and put it in bags to bring for after workouts. I'm sure the jerky has a little bad stuff but I can't complain, it's really good. I've got a lot more ideas I invented this week that I'll post later.

One thing I know for sure, paleo is how I will eat for as far as I can see into the future.
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Old 09-26-2009, 08:35 PM   #507
Samantha Aurelio
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

So I have a question, what if you go to someone's house and they make dinner and it so happens to have wheat/dairy/sugar in it (chicken gumbo and banana bread) -- I tried to explain a "intolerence to dairy and wheat" which got me the reply "oh, it's not that much!"
So, I reluctantly ate it, since I was "over for dinner" --- I was so upset over it though, but I didn't want to be antisocial and not go over (I was contemplating not going because I was afraid this was going to happen...)
So now I am fasting until my hunger comes back and then I'll start back to paleo.. but honestly.. what was I supposed to do in a situation like that. ?
Just curious to your answers.
Eek. back to this we go.

PS. I hate wheat dairy and sugar. I don't know why people cook with it
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Old 09-26-2009, 08:36 PM   #508
Christopher H Smith
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

Natalie youare right I was really enjoying this thread until the pro / con war started.
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Old 09-26-2009, 09:33 PM   #509
Joe Bernard
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

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Originally Posted by Samantha Aurelio View Post
So I have a question, what if you go to someone's house and they make dinner and it so happens to have wheat/dairy/sugar in it (chicken gumbo and banana bread) -- I tried to explain a "intolerence to dairy and wheat" which got me the reply "oh, it's not that much!"
So, I reluctantly ate it, since I was "over for dinner" --- I was so upset over it though, but I didn't want to be antisocial and not go over (I was contemplating not going because I was afraid this was going to happen...)
So now I am fasting until my hunger comes back and then I'll start back to paleo.. but honestly.. what was I supposed to do in a situation like that. ?
Just curious to your answers.
Eek. back to this we go.

PS. I hate wheat dairy and sugar. I don't know why people cook with it
In that case I would just eat what they make. You don't have to eat alot, just as long as you have some. I just had this happen to me today. It's parents' weekend at my college and one of my friends and his parents cooked hamburgers and hotdogs for lunch for a bunch of my friends and their parents. I had a burger and a hotdog, both with buns. I didn't feel too great afterward, but I didn't want to be like oh I don't want to because I eat this way. So that's why I don't designate a cheat meal or anything, so that when stuff like this pops up I don't feel as bad.
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Old 09-26-2009, 09:41 PM   #510
Jon Gonzalez
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Re: paleo "change your life in 30 days"

I've fallen off the wagon pretty hard. It started the day I flew out here. Flying really messes things up diet wise. I was doing good, but couldn't find many if any paleo type foods to eat other than snacks, and snacks just won't replace a full paleo meal. Needless to say I've been eating pretty bad the past few days. I'm getting back on though, just needed to go out and buy some food here, although it sucks having to carry groceries onto a shuttle bus to your dorm room. Luckily I have a full sized fridge, but nothing but a microwave to cook said food. So for all you that are in a similar situation, can you give me ideas on how to eat paleo this way? I'll be in the dorms for a good year or so in training, but I don't want that to mean I can't eat paleo. I'm also trying to avoid the chow halls here, they're quite disgusting and very hard to find clean paleo foods. I tried on Friday, but they ran out of chicken just as I got there, so I ended up getting spaghetti and broccoli with a salad. I ate the meat and the broccoli, but it wasn't much. Help!
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