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Old 05-29-2006, 11:50 AM   #41
Tom Brose
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Thanks for posting all that Bobbi, I hope no one here ever has to be in one of those situations. I have to say, here in DC there was recently a robbery turned homicide captured on the security camera (happened in a apt. building lobby). The victim was in a group that was suck up, and decided to fight- he was killed. Now, I still think that resistance may be the right option sometimes, but dint work for him. When i watched the video, i just was amazed at how easily he got his hands on the robber, but violated one of Jeffs principles. As the Victim and his friends tried to wrestle (no stikes kicks, bites etc), he moved his head right into the line of fire. Bang, dead. Sad, but a good illustration of several points.
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Old 05-30-2006, 10:44 AM   #42
Jim Aldridge
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Interesting discussion. I don't want to speak out of "both sides of my mouth" but...

Deadly force warrants deadly force. Buy a weapon. Get EXTENSIVE training. Practice, practice, practice. And apply the "American Express" theory of concealed carry (Don't leave home without it). If we view with contempt the idiot who brings a knife to a gunfight, what does it say about us when we discuss disarming techniques for two pages before even bringing up the issue of using weapons ourselves? Facing an aggressor with a knife, gun, stick, or other weapon? the answer is the same: Deploy your own weapon, get behind cover if feasible, and SHOOT HIM!

That being said, statistics show us that the majority of handgun encounters occur at "conversational" distances (roughly 3 feet) While some would argue that this is all the more reason to devote much of their training on dealing with armed attackers to disarming techniques I think that time would be better spent if some of you guys with the martial arts knowledge of kinesiology, body mechanics, leverage, etc. would develop a comprehensive approach to weapons retention and weapons deployment. Someone needs to train the masses how to answer the questions:

How do get out of the line of fire quickly, deploy my own weapon, and return fire accurately when facing an armed attacker?

If someone grabs my weapon, how do I gain/maintain control of it and end the confrontation?

There are alot of guys out there that can shoot. There are alot of guys out there that can fight. Threre are very few guys out there who can bridge the problematic gap that exists between those two worlds, that area of "how do I fight for my weapon and with my weapon?" Grapplers are always conscious of guarding their throats against a choke and not giving their opponent a straight arm that he can arm bar. Has anyone (and it will have to be someone smarter than me) developed an approach for guarding your weapon while grappling? That is just one more part of that gap between hand to hand combat and gunfighting and THAT GAP is where I believe most people have an omission in their training.
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Old 05-30-2006, 03:36 PM   #43
Jeremy Jones
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Old 05-30-2006, 07:16 PM   #44
Mike Neill
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Former jarhead is attacked by a carload of robbers, including one with a shotgun. He disarms the would-be shooter. In the fight that followed, alone and armed only with a knife, he kills one hoodlum and critically wounds another.

It sounds unbelievable, so judge for yourself:
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:00 AM   #45
Mike Neill
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Old 05-31-2006, 03:10 PM   #46
Jeff Martin
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You have given a good description of military and LEO Krav Maga. The civilian version of Krav Maga was developed later for use by people who do not nec. have the option of carrying weapons.
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Old 05-31-2006, 06:04 PM   #47
Tim Weaver
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Since Arizona allows free citizens to go about armed, do any KM instructors teach this style to us "civilians"?
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:25 PM   #48
Matthew Albanese
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Just my $.02

Jeff - as for your perspective on Filipino arts as they relate to empty hand defense against a motivated and armed attacker, I think you're right on there. I teach and train Kali, and have been doing so for about 10 years, and while I can appreciate how this kind of training can definitely enhance your fine motor skills and ability to manipulate a weapon, there is a time to dispense with precise and "perfect" movement and get right to the point.

One of the things I've always admired about Krav Maga, though I've never trained in it personally, is that it teaches the student to go from "0 to 60," that is, to deal with how a confrontation suddenly starts and erupts and how to take quick decisive action, and I've always felt this is one thing that the Filipino arts as they are commonly practiced tend to lack. For that reason, I try to impress these skills upon my students by not just working passing and disarming drills but also common mugging scenarios, or what we call "in the grasp."

I'm certainly no expert on gun play, but our martial arts academy has had a longstanding relationship with W. Hock Hocheim's association. One of the bents his teaching has taken as of late is close quarter gun tactics using simulated ammo. We've had him come out and do a few workshops at our school on this type of thing, and like all of his material, it's aggressive, to the point, and scientific. It's also a TOTAL BLAST (pardon the pun) to do! We got to practice shooting a living breathing "target," fighting for control of the weapon and firing at close quarters, and even re-enacting hostage scenarios!
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Old 06-01-2006, 05:26 PM   #49
Bobbi Beglau Salvini
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Tom: I don’t mean to sound like an advocate for always resisting. Absolutely not. I AM AN ADVOCATE FOR HAVING OPTIONS! I myself have had a guy pull a knife on me and talked and walked. Today in the paper there was a guy in Atlanta named Thomas Aurty age 36, ex-Marine. Four people with a shot gun and a hand gun tried to rob him. He fought, killed a 17 year old girl, injured another guy critically and police caught the other two. All he had was a pocket knife and his military training. BZ Aurty ended up with a bruised chest and a cut on his hand. But it could have gone bad, and it looks like this group had committed several other robberies that did not end in killing people. I am glad they are off the street, but in this case maybe just throwing them your wallet and then running would be good.

In the cases that I suggested disbarment might have been good, the attacker wanted their life. In that case, my main point is not to give up.
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:08 PM   #50
Darby Lee Darrow
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Great thread, great questions and great responses!

Just a reminder for those of you attending the Crossfit Training Seminar in San Diego July 15 and 16, Jeff Martin will be there showing a thing or two about Krav. Tony Blauer will be there sharing his SPEAR which will probably cover some of these topics. And I just heard a rumor yesterday that there may be a late addition by some LEO in the area teaching Elements of Gunfighting, which just might include some discussion of the transition between hand to hand and the gunfight.:wink:
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