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Old 05-25-2006, 10:08 PM   #21
Jeff Martin
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David,
The certainty of your post is why I rarely share my views about the martial arts with anyone. I find it's like religon. Most people are so certain they are right. Barry, I get all my good stuff from the Lone Ranger so you won't need to buy my DVD. :lol:
Been in the Martial arts since I was 17, crap I see from my profile that's almost 30 years. Studied Arnis, Escrima, or Kali with at least 6 or 7 different teachers. I love it. It's practical and useful, but it's not the only art that works with weapons. Krav Maga starts with the assumption that weapons will be involved. In Krav Maga a defense against a punch, must work against a knife and other weapons as well.

Defenses against a stick or other blunt object: When I first investigate Krav Maga, I approached an instructor after class. I asked him why Krav Maga was better at defending against a blunt object attack than Arnis. He handed me a stick, put his hands at his sides, looked at me and said "Hit me". In all my years I had never had an instructor simply say "Hit me". Not give me a number one or hit me with this angle. Simply standing with his hands at his sides, looking at me and saying "Hit me". I suddenly knew I was going to get my *** kicked. I tried to hit him with everything I had and I was right, I got my *** kicked. I still practice Arnis occasionaly, but there is a practicality with KM that cannot be ignored.

Defenses against a knife:
Most people haven't really seen a knife attack. I have. They aren't what you think and a fancy redirect will not stop the attack. Paraphrasing Barry prepare to be cut, keep fighting. Krav Maga approaches the knife defense very differently than Arnis. The chief instructor of Krav Maga in the U.S. is also a district attorney in L.A. He works for CAPO crimes against police officers. He has unusual access to crime scenes and can tell you what a knife attack is like, what wounds are most common, and what strikes most commonly kill the victim. The knife defenses are built around real info not legend.

Gun defenses:
Where do you come up with the statement "Very rarely is someone that has a gun pointed at you will be standing within arms reach " Interesting statement but probably not true in the case of a carjacking, ATM robbery, convenience store hold up...etc. etc. etc. Krav Magas approach to gun defense; redirect the line of fire, control the weapon, counter attack, take the weapon. Above all keep fighting. If/when things go wrong, and they will keep fighting, being shot doesn't mean the end of the fight.

Like religion my preference for Krav Maga is just my opinion, and of course that of my students who have defended against knives, guns, and multiple attackers.
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Old 05-26-2006, 05:48 AM   #22
David Stegman
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Jeff, you're 100% correct on the religion thing. I have been training in various Martial Arts for close to 20 years and I know exactly what you are talking about. It's difficult to say one this is this and one thing is that.

Where do you come up with the statement "Very rarely is someone that has a gun pointed at you will be standing within arms reach " Interesting statement but probably not true in the case of a carjacking, ATM robbery, convenience store hold up...etc. etc. etc.

As far as my statement goes this is based on talking to numerous friends that are involved in Martial Arts and law enforcement. From K-9 unit police, swat officers, DPS, and TABC officers. By far the TABC officers come in contact with the most problems on the street. All of them confirm a lot of what I was saying about weapons etc. Of course this is just my experience.

These topics are so difficult to discuss though. Everyone thinks one thing is better etc. I've been training BJJ for almost 10 years now so I have a different take on self-defense over someone that trains in Krav Maga, Kali, or anything else.
Again, your analogy to religion is dead on.

We may "agree to disagree" but at least we all are on the same "team" right? :-)

(Message edited by AgentCooper on May 26, 2006)
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:27 AM   #23
Brad Hirakawa
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I would add that a martial arts system would be particularly interesting to me if it included close range handgun training, that involved using your own handgun (carried concealed). I am not certain, but I suspect Krav Maga incorporates weapons training of this nature as well. Maybe not necessarily in all classes, but perhaps for the military or LEO classes. Again, I just don't know enough about the system.

For example:

Bad guy is trying to stab (kill) you, you are employing combatives, defenses, footwork, etc... while drawing your handgun from concealment and firing a burst of serveral shots into his body and his face.

Brad
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Old 05-26-2006, 08:37 AM   #24
Jeff Martin
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Brad you have it just about right.

David,
I disagreed with the statement of absolute that you provided. FMA addresses weapons use, other arts do in a practical manner as well. I also wouldn't nec. disagree with the run if you can defense. We call it the "sneaker defense", and we practice it. If I can give my car keys to an assailant to make him go away I will. But practicing to deal with the one time that, compliance or flight is not an option make sense in my world. When shots are fired and you have nowhere to run, knowing how to redirect the line of fire and control the weapon could save your life. Trying to solve the problem with no tools and no training in the middle of an adreniline dump will probably be difficult.
I have friend/mentor who posted something this morning on our site. He said that on his fight gear is inscribed "Ichi-Go, Ichi E" - one chance one encounter. I think it is best to be prepared for the worst.

BTW David, you don't agree with me 100% of the time on every issue so you and I cannot possibly be on the same team.:lol:


(Message edited by Jeff_m on May 26, 2006)
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Old 05-26-2006, 08:44 AM   #25
David Stegman
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The "team" comment is referring to your religion comment. We may not be of the same "religion" but we do believe in a "higher power".....meaning (since you missed it) that at least we train some form of martial arts instead of nothing.

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Old 05-26-2006, 08:44 AM   #26
Brad Hirakawa
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sneaker defense.. I like that. That is certainly my first "technique" to emply as well! :-)

Jeff, I was going to try to make it up there tonight with Darby, but a few weeks of Motrin ate a hole in my stomach, so I would be useless.

Brad


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Old 05-26-2006, 08:58 AM   #27
Jeff Martin
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Sorry to hear both (motrin addiction and that we won't see you.) Going to try to talk Darby into making this a monthly event. So maybe next time. Pretty cool Darby has started CrossFit huh?
Jeff

(Message edited by jeff_m on May 26, 2006)
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Old 05-26-2006, 09:04 AM   #28
Dan Strametz
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David, the statement Put the choice to pull the trigger in the hands of the attacker. Personally I want the choice to be put in my hands, not someone elses. The sneaker defense is well taught in our school. Arnis love the art, great foot movement (moving off line) quick hands, empty or with weapons. Krav's knife attacks are taken from surveillance tapes actuall knife attacks. The victims that fought back lived. Lesson: FIGHT BACK! yes fight against a knife you will or may get cut, you defend against a gun you will or may get shot, but you must fight back! Thanks for the discussion
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Old 05-26-2006, 09:09 AM   #29
Brad Hirakawa
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Very cool indeed.

Yeah... motrin.. no more for me. I am beginning to realize that pharmaceuticals are emergency medicine, to be used as a last resort. Next time I'll just use ice.

I may be there tonight after all. My morning protein-almond milk-fish oil-spinach-blueberry shake seems to be staying put. Nice green-blue slime... "pats belly"... be good to Brad.

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Old 05-26-2006, 09:11 AM   #30
Jeff Martin
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David,
Didn't miss it was being tongue in cheek again refering to how people get about religon.
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