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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 01-20-2010, 07:54 AM   #11
Tom Seryak
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

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Originally Posted by Sam Walker View Post
All bar one inside 15 mins in duration. Broad time?
Sledge hammer/row event - times ranged approximately between 4.5-7.5 minutes

Triplet - 8 minutes fixed

Couplet - times ranged approximately between 11-20 minutes

Chipper - times ranged approximately between 19-35 minutes

Run - times ranged approximately between 36-60 minutes

Aerobic capacity was clearly tested in 5 out of the 8 events. The times in the 6 "metcon" events ranged from 1 minute to up to 60 minutes for some competitors. I would call that broad. An event outside of an hour wouldn't have tested anything about fitness that wasn't tested in the selected events at the games.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:58 AM   #12
Sam Walker
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

Sorry. That was a bit abrupt. That's a good post. What you say about modal domains is interesting and largely I agree with your comments about broad time.

I'm of the opinion the events had a bias to the shorter end of the spectrum of "broad time". I've said I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, but I think it differs from the definition of "Increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains".

Does CrossFit Strength Bias (CFSB) have a fitness definition and how would someone doing CFSB have fared in the '09 Games? One knowable, one not.

Edit: Sorry - posted this before I saw your second post

Last edited by Sam Walker : 01-20-2010 at 08:00 AM. Reason: You're posting too fast!
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:01 AM   #13
Brian Bedell
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

Two points, IMO.
1. What you are suggesting is more LSD, which in the eyes of most cf'ers is counterproductive, and non-functional in general. There have been very few times in my life where i needed to run for an hour. However, there have been many times in my life, and the lives of those heroes (police, fireman, medics, armed forces) who do cf where a high level of fitness was needed for less then 30 minutes. Just saying...I don't think LSD is that functional and therefore not included more. And I'm fine with the defintion of broad.

2. THis has been discussed numerous times before, and falls into the same argument category as "why is there not more benching in cf." CF can't include everything, esp. at the games.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:13 AM   #14
Mark E. Wallace
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
I supect that the worlds fittest men and women are too busy training for the Olympics or are earning a living competing in real sports to waste their time entering so all the games do is reveal the fittest man and woman who enters.
Let's not go here again please.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:21 AM   #15
Robert D Taylor Jr
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

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Originally Posted by Brian Bedell View Post
Two points, IMO.
1. What you are suggesting is more LSD, which in the eyes of most cf'ers is counterproductive, and non-functional in general. There have been very few times in my life where i needed to run for an hour. However, there have been many times in my life, and the lives of those heroes (police, fireman, medics, armed forces) who do cf where a high level of fitness was needed for less then 30 minutes. Just saying...I don't think LSD is that functional and therefore not included more. And I'm fine with the defintion of broad.

2. THis has been discussed numerous times before, and falls into the same argument category as "why is there not more benching in cf." CF can't include everything, esp. at the games.

If LSD is long slow distance, you're doing it wrong. long steady distance is the thing. A max effort 10K etc is hard (like CrossFit hard) and being able to put out for 40 min to an hour is useful (not falling into the functional trap)

CFs definition of broad is what? For me it needs to include ME and endurance up to around an hour to be as broad as my old program's (Which it is generally)

Shorter evolutions develop capacity for longer evolutions, but what if the 1 hour evolution is the "short" I know when I often worked 24 hr days in a physical environment, the "LSD" prep I did seemed to help.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:23 AM   #16
Jamie J. Skibicki
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

Hey, you put up a sign saying "We beat other athletes", you open yourself up to this.

I thought something interesting for the games or at least for a competition would be to do a bunch of other athletic contests.

Sat, Weight lifting Total followed by a break and then a power lifting total, another break and a 5 k

Next day, indoor rowing, 200 meter run and a marathon.

Last edited by Jamie J. Skibicki : 01-20-2010 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:27 AM   #17
Sam Walker
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

Thanks for the reply Brian. I'm not sure how you came up with your first point...
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Originally Posted by Sam Walker View Post
I think the focus Crossfit adopts on shorter periods of exertion is probably more applicable to everyday life and situations. In modern life you are more likely to need a good 1 rep max, than a fast marathon time.
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Originally Posted by Brian Bedell View Post
1. What you are suggesting is more LSD, which in the eyes of most cf'ers is counterproductive, and non-functional in general. There have been very few times in my life where i needed to run for an hour. However, there have been many times in my life, and the lives of those heroes (police, fireman, medics, armed forces) who do cf where a high level of fitness was needed for less then 30 minutes. Just saying...I don't think LSD is that functional and therefore not included more. And I'm fine with the defintion of broad.
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Originally Posted by Brian Bedell View Post
2. THis has been discussed numerous times before, and falls into the same argument category as "why is there not more benching in cf." CF can't include everything, esp. at the games..
I agree with most of what you say but I disagree here. Yes CF cannot contain infinite exercise within finite limits. But I'm asking whether the '09 games were as good a test as could be designed.

But in a hypothetical Games ’10 where two athletes - Andy Bolten and Haile Gebrselassie - compete over 2 events, a “Run 10k in under 40 mins” and a “Deadlift 500lbs” both would be tied for 1st place.

As I’ve said a couple of times already, I agree with a focus towards strength over endurance (for the reasons you mention) but I think the definition needs to be changed to reflect this.

As it stands a long distance runner could argue Crossfit is really testing over broad time, whereas the arguments you’re giving me don’t address those. Tom Seryak's do.

Your arguments (which I agree with) address hypothetical attacks in the new definition I think should be implemented (to contain a bias towards shorter time periods).

Tom, that's a good post. My knowledge on the subject isn't up to much and I'd need to research more but I'm not certain a duration of 1 minute plus is necessarily proof an event is testing aerobic/endurance fitness.

Last edited by Sam Walker : 01-20-2010 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:53 AM   #18
Owen Bird
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

How broad is broad? Time can be pretty enormous, even in the context of exercise - I know guys who do 24hr bike competitions. There has to be a cutoff at some point.

I think the events were picked out of a hopper to ensure randomisation. I don't know what the mix of events in the hopper was like, but this could account for some skewed-ness.

Of the "1 rep max" events, how many were over in one lift? I don't think any were. It was repeated work across a longer time. Not continuous work by any stretch of the imagination, but more than the 1-hit workout you make it sound like.

I would also argue that a high 1 rep max is more useful than massive endurance in the real world. Even if we ignore the impact of higher strength on your other sporting performances, I have lifted heavy stuff in the course of my life in a bunch of occaisions - Trail building, manual labour, dropped motorbikes, etc. I have yet to need to run any distance, let alone over 2 miles, for any reason except training and exercise.

This stuff can turn into a huge discussion if you focus on the minutae, I don't expect that the tagline was created with the intention of this kind of scrutiny.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:06 AM   #19
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

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Originally Posted by Sam Walker View Post
Yes CF cannot contain infinite exercise within finite limits. But I'm asking whether the '09 games were as good a test as could be designed.
Could a better test be designed? Sure. Is anyone else even attempting to test broad, general, and inclusive fitness? Not really. You could make the argument that perhaps the dectahlon comes close, but does it really?

1)100 meters
2) Long jump
3) Shot put
4) High jump
5) 400 meters
6) 110 meter hurdles
7) Discus
8) Pole vault
9) Javelin
10) 1500 meters

For sure this takes great overall fitness, but it's not testing on the same level the Games do. The longest event is still under 5:00. No heavy lifting is done. Decathletes are incredible athletes and I think a competitive decathlete would do fairly well at the Games. But it still stands that until someone else comes up with a better test than CF, CF can make the claim of testing and crowning World's Fittest Man and Woman.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:19 AM   #20
Sam Walker
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Re: Is Crossfit right about fitness?

Owen, regardless of how many lifts the max snatch event took most athletes, the test was one involving the shortest time possible: the time it took the athlete to complete 1 (his heaviest) snatch. The winner could have done a single lift.

As I've said a few times I agree with a focus on things like 1 rep max, but that doesn't fit in with "broad time". It's more like "broad time with a bias towards short times".

I didn't know the events were drawn out of the hat - that's good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gedicks View Post
Could a better test be designed? Sure. Is anyone else even attempting to test broad, general, and inclusive fitness? Not really.
I completely agree. I couldn't. CrossFit is scientific and open source. It should survive any criticism because if valid that criticism will be worked into the program.
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