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Old 09-10-2011, 02:49 PM   #201
Zach Reed
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Wayne Reeder View Post
Aren't anabolics PALEO!!!? What's the big deal?

I read an article a while back on steroids (aka "gear") written by a powerlifter (I thought it was on StrengthVillain, but couldn't find it there) that blew me away. Basically, there aren't many risks as long as you do your homework. I concluded that if you are a highly competitive athlete you are either: a genetic gift from God if you don't need them (highly unlikely) or an idiot for getting caught using them (you timed your cycle wrong). Besides, all the PEDs in the world won't turn average genetics Joe Schmo into Ronnie Coleman. These guys already have awesome genetics, it's just another piece of gear in their training toolbox (hence the nickname).

The only competitive athletes that I 100% believe don't currently use PEDs as part of their off-season training are the top tier US Olympic athletes, like Michael Phelps, that volunteer for ridiculous amounts of off-season testing. Other countries don't necessarily test their athletes year round. I really would like to think otherwise, but the cynic in me refuses to accept that based on a single test at a competition.

The world of sports would be so much cooler if steroids were just ignored. Remember how cool baseball was in the late 90s when McGuire and Sosa were hitting (sometimes multiple) homeruns every game?
haha you would wayne.

Instead of keeping up my patented paleo+calories diet, maybe I should give Paleo+PEDs a shot since Robb W. didn't seem to have a problem with it and see what we can turn me into.

Last edited by Zach Reed : 09-10-2011 at 02:57 PM. Reason: adsf
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:57 PM   #202
Wayne Reeder
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Zach Reed View Post
haha you would wayne.

Instead of keeping up my patented paleo+calories diet, maybe I should give Paleo+PEDs a shot since Robb W. didn't seem to have a problem with it and see what we can turn me into.
A good start would be "you need to eat for 215, not your 165 pound sprint-tri doing self." Maybe the BSN fight stack too, I guarantee something in that would make you test positive though.
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Old 09-10-2011, 04:07 PM   #203
Stu Christensen
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Michael Kelley View Post
They haven't done double blind, placebo controlled studies on meth but nobody doubts the "stories."

Here's a resource:
http://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/steroids.html
(wfs)
Haha, that is laughable. For many reasons. There is a far cry from USE ans ABUSE. Second, I have before and will admit again to having used PED's...and I had blood work done before and after - with NO clinical traceable affects. Once again, USE vs. ABUSE is very different. Thirdly, the animal "study" was ridiculous and not even close to using any kind of scientific methodology. I'm not personally for or against, but I have proof that for ME, science can not tell any difference in my body prior to or after taking PED's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Reeder View Post
Aren't anabolics PALEO!!!? What's the big deal?

I read an article a while back on steroids (aka "gear") written by a powerlifter (I thought it was on StrengthVillain, but couldn't find it there) that blew me away. Basically, there aren't many risks as long as you do your homework. I concluded that if you are a highly competitive athlete you are either: a genetic gift from God if you don't need them (highly unlikely) or an idiot for getting caught using them (you timed your cycle wrong). Besides, all the PEDs in the world won't turn average genetics Joe Schmo into Ronnie Coleman. These guys already have awesome genetics, it's just another piece of gear in their training toolbox (hence the nickname).

The only competitive athletes that I 100% believe don't currently use PEDs as part of their off-season training are the top tier US Olympic athletes, like Michael Phelps, that volunteer for ridiculous amounts of off-season testing. Other countries don't necessarily test their athletes year round. I really would like to think otherwise, but the cynic in me refuses to accept that based on a single test at a competition.

The world of sports would be so much cooler if steroids were just ignored. Remember how cool baseball was in the late 90s when McGuire and Sosa were hitting (sometimes multiple) homeruns every game?
THIS!! Someone go find the video of Dave Tate talking with Tony Budding in the journal discussing PED's...Dave does a great job in explaining his views. Remember people, you can't test positive for something they're not testing for because the testers don't know it exists.

I believe this is it, but I can't say for sure...
http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/07/...d-crossfit.tpl wfs
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Old 09-10-2011, 05:03 PM   #204
Wayne Reeder
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Zach Reed View Post
haha you would wayne.

Instead of keeping up my patented paleo+calories diet, maybe I should give Paleo+PEDs a shot since Robb W. didn't seem to have a problem with it and see what we can turn me into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Reeder View Post
A good start would be "you need to eat for 215, not your 165 pound sprint-tri doing self." Maybe the BSN fight stack too, I guarantee something in that would make you test positive though.
I realized that probably sounds rude to people that don't know we are friends so I needed to add the following. Seriously, if you could somehow put on 20-30 pounds and stay in the South East, you would make it to at least regionals next year.
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:18 PM   #205
Michael Kelley
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Stu Christensen View Post
Haha, that is laughable. For many reasons. There is a far cry from USE ans ABUSE. Second, I have before and will admit again to having used PED's...and I had blood work done before and after - with NO clinical traceable affects. Once again, USE vs. ABUSE is very different. Thirdly, the animal "study" was ridiculous and not even close to using any kind of scientific methodology. I'm not personally for or against, but I have proof that for ME, science can not tell any difference in my body prior to or after taking PED's.



THIS!! Someone go find the video of Dave Tate talking with Tony Budding in the journal discussing PED's...Dave does a great job in explaining his views. Remember people, you can't test positive for something they're not testing for because the testers don't know it exists.

I believe this is it, but I can't say for sure...
http://journal.crossfit.com/2009/07/...d-crossfit.tpl wfs
Hey, I'm glad it hasn't messed you up yet. Unfortunately, that it hasn't is like surviving a game of russian roulette and claiming there's nothing wrong with the game. I wish I could recall the name of the documentary where a guy steroided his quad muscle right off his leg after about 2 cycles.

As for longing for the days of Sosa and McGuire, that was cool when I thought they were doing it clean. Now I know they were just cheating dirtbags who have managed to f&*! up the sport for other players and for fans by cheating.
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:46 AM   #206
Adam Carlson
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Re: Final games thoughts

Michael - how would you steroid your right quad off? Did he inject himself in the quad with one massive needle the size of a foam roller or something? In all seriousness though, was it the steroids that tore things apart, or preexisting conditions exacerbated by training and/or poor choice of training methods/exercises? There are plenty of people out there who tear muscles pretty severely. A friend of mine tore his hamstring in the last 50m of a 4x4 at the final track meet his senior year. No steroids. I'm going to be leaning heavily on the side of 'there were major issues there already, and the steroids probably didn't help' rather than 'steroids blew his freaking leg apart'.

I've really been wondering about the PEDs being 'cheating' or not thing for quite awhile now. Everybody starts on an uneven playing field anyway: genetics, surroundings, finances, equipment, coaching, etc. These things have a HUGE impact even before the athlete gets to the point of considering whether or not to use PEDs. If Bolt had been born and raised in an immensely impoverished area with no access to decent coaching, equipment, or competition opportunities, would he still be the amazing runner that he is now? What about the upper level athletes out there who really don't have the genetic gifting for their chosen sport, but thanks to having been born into a wealthy family who put them in a very talented training program have found their way in to the Olympics or professional sports? Or what about countries where governments take youth selected at an extremely early age and prep them specifically for world level competition? Where is the 'even playing field' there?

If a sport bans the use of PEDs, that's one thing, and the rules should be followed in the ways dictated by the governing body of that sport. If they aren't banned, then the results that the athletes leave behind are legit in my opinion. The big sluggers from the late 90's might have had help, but it still takes a heck of a lot of skill to hit a fastball, not to mention curves, forks, knuckles, and SFFs, and to be able to do it on demand without knowing what might be coming their way. PEDs don't do the work, they allow the athlete to better express the talent that they have. Besides, we can always build a bigger stadium to make home runs more of an achievement, and add an extra asterisk to records in the process.

All that said, will I use PEDs? No. Do I want people to not follow the rules of their sport? No. Do I think that PEDs should be banned and illegal in all forms all the time? No.

Just my 2 yen.
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:47 AM   #207
Michael Kelley
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Re: Final games thoughts

As I recall (and I know this is just one anecdote from one documentary, the name of which I cannot recall), the guy roided up sufficiently that he degraded the connective tissue for his quads. During one lift, the tissue tore completely at one end of the muscle group, detaching it completely. The violence of the tear under load actually ripped the skin. The guy hadn't healed right since. Anyway...

In my view, steroids are cheating. An athlete is dealt whatever cards he's dealt by genetics and gets the rest through hard work, resourcefulness, and wise use of opportunity. Anyone can do that. If steroids are allowed in competition, it effectively makes them a requirement to compete. They can take an exceptional athlete and turn him into a top 1% guy (ie. turning Barry Bonds of the early 90's into Bonds of the more recent past) or they can turn a solid athlete into an exceptional one (ie. the guy whose baseball hits might be gathered up by the infield into one who can loop them into the gap in the outfield). What happens to the guy who doesn't use but has talent and works hard? He gets beat out by otherwise lesser athletes who use. It turns things into a chemical contest, not an athletic one. I'd rather not see that.
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Old 09-11-2011, 07:37 PM   #208
Charles Applin
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Re: Final games thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Kelley View Post
As I recall (and I know this is just one anecdote from one documentary, the name of which I cannot recall), the guy roided up sufficiently that he degraded the connective tissue for his quads. During one lift, the tissue tore completely at one end of the muscle group, detaching it completely. The violence of the tear under load actually ripped the skin. The guy hadn't healed right since. Anyway...

In my view, steroids are cheating. An athlete is dealt whatever cards he's dealt by genetics and gets the rest through hard work, resourcefulness, and wise use of opportunity. Anyone can do that. If steroids are allowed in competition, it effectively makes them a requirement to compete. They can take an exceptional athlete and turn him into a top 1% guy (ie. turning Barry Bonds of the early 90's into Bonds of the more recent past) or they can turn a solid athlete into an exceptional one (ie. the guy whose baseball hits might be gathered up by the infield into one who can loop them into the gap in the outfield). What happens to the guy who doesn't use but has talent and works hard? He gets beat out by otherwise lesser athletes who use. It turns things into a chemical contest, not an athletic one. I'd rather not see that.
So you would agree that use of glasses or corrective eye surgery should be banned from pro-sports? As I understand it, your eyesight is tied heavily to your genetics ie the card's you're dealt.

Or maybe, just maybe, we're being selective on what is considered ok when it comes to improving on what genetics and life's position already offers. People get inoculated, have flouride added to the water, take vitamins, supplements, mild stimulants and pain suppresants, have surgeries and corrective procedures done. Let's not forget all the enhancing equipment and training to give players a leg up. All these are based on scientific study and advancement. Yet, one particular area must be banned cause it's not natural and gives players a leg up? Pardon me for seeing the disconnect.

Again, I'll point out that for our military personel that must put life and limb on the line, why aren't we encouraging steroid use in that area? If these chemicals offer such a great advantage, why the hell are we offer it to our soldiers (leo's) to make them that much more powerful on the battlefield (society)? And if so, why not finance further study to improve the safety and efficacy of said chemicals. Trust me, I could care less about an even playing field in those areas of life.

Last edited by Charles Applin : 09-11-2011 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 09-11-2011, 11:52 PM   #209
Adam Carlson
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Re: Final games thoughts

You make a good point on the 'life depending on it' part of things Charles. I believe I read something about air-force pilots using some stimulants to stay awake on long missions. That's another life or death situation where having some chemical assistance would help. Should everybody use it? Probably not, but there is a time and a place for it.

Very interesting movie to watch on the subject: Bigger Faster Stronger.
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Old 09-12-2011, 07:37 AM   #210
Michael Kelley
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Re: Final games thoughts

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Originally Posted by Charles Applin View Post
So you would agree that use of glasses or corrective eye surgery should be banned from pro-sports? As I understand it, your eyesight is tied heavily to your genetics ie the card's you're dealt.

Or maybe, just maybe, we're being selective on what is considered ok when it comes to improving on what genetics and life's position already offers. People get inoculated, have flouride added to the water, take vitamins, supplements, mild stimulants and pain suppresants, have surgeries and corrective procedures done. Let's not forget all the enhancing equipment and training to give players a leg up. All these are based on scientific study and advancement. Yet, one particular area must be banned cause it's not natural and gives players a leg up? Pardon me for seeing the disconnect.

Again, I'll point out that for our military personel that must put life and limb on the line, why aren't we encouraging steroid use in that area? If these chemicals offer such a great advantage, why the hell are we offer it to our soldiers (leo's) to make them that much more powerful on the battlefield (society)? And if so, why not finance further study to improve the safety and efficacy of said chemicals. Trust me, I could care less about an even playing field in those areas of life.
Flouride in the water and eye surgery doesn't make you trade your health for performance. As for vitamins and supplements, many of them are also banned from sports because of the health problems associated with using them (hydroxycut, etc...). The things you list don't weaken your immune system, damage adrenal glands, weaken bone structure, and do the host of other things that anabolic steroids do to trash the body. As I mentioned earlier, I think that HGH should be studied. It seems to have potential for certain health benefits as well as performance benefits. It might one day be useful as a widespread medical tool. If it is shown to be safe and effective, it can be revisited. Until then, it is quite clear that using these chemicals is absolutely cheating in competition.
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