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Old 09-15-2008, 12:02 PM   #71
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

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Originally Posted by Charles Staley View Post
Greg, the fact that Aimee (or anyone else for that matter) lifts more than me does not make your position superior to mine.

And to clarify: I'm not necessarily arguing for maximum low-bar squats! My singular argument is that if you accept RDL's, GM's, Deadlifts, back extensions, etc., as acceptable posterior chain exercises, it's incongruous to then say that low-bar squats are somehow out of the question. It simply makes no sense.
No, your lifting performance didn't have any bearing on the discussion - until you threw your hat in the ring by adding yourself to the weightlifters who lift genuinely heavy weights category, thereby implying your personal experience exempted you from my prior comments about those having no weightlifting experience not sincerely being able to understand the argument.

Maximal or submaximal, I go back to my question - Why? If you need direct PC work, there are much better options that don't involve quad at all (or so minimally to be inconsequential, e.g. RDL/GM). For a LBBS to really have much impact on the back, you do need to use pretty high percentages; and if you intend to use it in more of a high-rep situation, then those same high reps are involving the quads, which is certainly not helpful and more likely counterproductive.
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:06 PM   #72
Aimee Anaya
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Well, I think that everyone has their own personal preferences and do what they feel is necessary to succeed. We all do what, in our mind, is the best for us. If we don't believe in our training cycle, than it won't work. So in this matter, I will say we will just agree to disagree. And I never take anything as a personal beef
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:13 PM   #73
Charles Staley
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

Greg, despite my limited talent, I do have genuine weightlifting experience (and don't write me off yet- I'm still working on it ;-)

As to why...(and that's the pertinent question honestly), we might just have to agree to disagree. I think it's a valid posterior chain option (and the fact that it still involves quads to a degree makes it a great option) and you don't.

I think when you talk about low-bar squats, a lot of people (and I'm not necessarily including you here) just start to visualize super-wide stance, monolifts, questionable depth, ammonia, super suits, knee wraps, etc.

I'm just saying it's a viable option in some circumstances, and certainly I'm not arguing against high-bar and front squats which are obviously proven and useful movements for O-lifters.

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Originally Posted by Greg Everett View Post
No, your lifting performance didn't have any bearing on the discussion - until you threw your hat in the ring by adding yourself to the weightlifters who lift genuinely heavy weights category, thereby implying your personal experience exempted you from my prior comments about those having no weightlifting experience not sincerely being able to understand the argument.

Maximal or submaximal, I go back to my question - Why? If you need direct PC work, there are much better options that don't involve quad at all (or so minimally to be inconsequential, e.g. RDL/GM). For a LBBS to really have much impact on the back, you do need to use pretty high percentages; and if you intend to use it in more of a high-rep situation, then those same high reps are involving the quads, which is certainly not helpful and more likely counterproductive.
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:15 PM   #74
Charles Staley
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

No question, and on THAT we agree.

Aimee will you & Greg be at Americans in December?

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Originally Posted by Aimee Anaya View Post
Well, I think that everyone has their own personal preferences and do what they feel is necessary to succeed. We all do what, in our mind, is the best for us.
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:17 PM   #75
Brandon Oto
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

I assume that this entire debate is around relatively advanced weightlifters? Can we say that novice athletes building a strength base could do pretty well squatting this way?
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:14 PM   #76
Shawn Casey
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

I still like the low bar squat. The bar just fits right in there like is part of me........SO, how's the hoola hoopin' going, Aimee?
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:21 PM   #77
Graeme Howland
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

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Originally Posted by Greg Everett View Post
Charles -

Again, a squat with the weight you'd use with the magical LBBS cannot be equated to an RDL or SLDL or goodmorning - considering the demand of each and the effect on recovery. A squat cannot just be casually thrown in there for some additional PC work (and if you're using it as you suggest, it's in addition to high bar or front squatting) - it's going to be too much of a hit to recovery. Strong lifters can RDL/SLDL a ****load of weight, but even if they could (or would) use the loads they can squat, the exercise has far less of an impact in terms of recovery. So again, suggesting the LBBS is just another PC-specific auxiliary exercise doesn't work.
I think the effect on recovery was missed earlier on in the debate. Personally, I am brand new to training in general, I've been doing SS since March and have just begun O-lifting after a few seminars at OPT in Calgary (aka I am a total newbie and know nothing). I've done a bunch of reading on squatting and O-lifting training, and Greg's point here makes a lot of sense, you can't just throw a bunch of heavy low bar squats into an O-lifters programming without having to remove/sacrifice something else, due to the intensity of the exercise (with heavy weight) and recovery required.

Personally, for general fitness, I started with high bar squats and switched to low bar once I read SS because I felt I had a weak posterior chain relative to quad strength (office job, inactive glutes etc). After taking the intro to O-lifting sessions I thought more about it, did some research, and decided to incorporate high-bar and front squats into my SS program. So I now do one day of each every week as I feel each has varying benefits for someone looking for general conditioning.
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:24 PM   #78
Steven Quadros
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

I'm actually squatting narrow stance with the low bar position because, well, I feel like it, and I'm very comfortable with the low bar rak position. My torso angle is pretty upright and believe me when I say that my adductors and hamstrings are still working.

I must say that not worrying about hitting depth is a nice bonus- there's no way to mistake your hamstrings hitting your calves.
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:56 PM   #79
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

From what I have gathered is that over the years, Rip has trained lots of beginning to intermediate lifters from normal people to varied sports athletes. I think there have been kids out of his gym competing in Oly lifting at the HS level, possibly collegiate level but I'm not sure if he coached them or someone from that Wichita Falls group did. He has stated SS and PP are for general lifting and noobs. Once you get towards Elite level sports anything, general stuff just doesn't work that well. It would be like using pilates/bodybuilding for an elite level gymnast. Fine for a recreational/compulsory gymnast but insufficient towards the Elite levels because being Elite is all about specifity. Maybe that's a new word.

Maybe he doesn't give a rats about training elites. Let's face it most elite gymnastics gyms don't make their money on training a handful of elites. In fact, typically they take more time, more space, more emotion, and make less money than other classes and levels. While training elites has it's own benefits, it has a boatload of negatives as well.

At the beginning levels, low bar back squat might be better than a high bar back squat or for a weak new lifter. It's just another tool.

I also can see a use for doing a high bar squat to train the quads with a lot more poundage than front squat and getting around training the midline so much ( since front squat use the anterior part of the midline versus high bar back squat not stressing it as much ). This is just a thought I had on yesterday while reading this thread.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:59 PM   #80
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Re: Rippetoe Squatting

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Originally Posted by Steven Quadros View Post
I must say that not worrying about hitting depth is a nice bonus- there's no way to mistake your hamstrings hitting your calves.
I actually struggle with this on high bar/oly squat with heavy weight (for me, 1.5X BW for reps/sets). I'm not flexible enough (yet) to go full A2G with a tight lumbar curve, if I try to hit full depth with heavy weight I end up rounding a bit and have lower back pain for a few hours. This was one of the reasons I switched to exclusive low bar, but now I know rather than avoiding the problem, I should work on it.
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