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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 08-27-2011, 10:24 PM   #101
Robert Fabsik
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Michael Dowling View Post
thanks robert i'm definitely intrigued, you as usual give a lot of great feedback and information. my issue being where i am, is there are no coaches or even serious lifting gyms, you're basically on your own at a local globo as far as strength training goes, so a lot of it for me is trial by error.

i did 70s big for 3 months and made good gains, i hurt my back stupidly trying to grind out a heavy squat i should've bailed on. i took some time off and picked up the novice LP with SS (i wasn't doing much conditioning anyway so i figured SS was better, especially since i'm working light and moving up again). and with SS i'm squatting 3 times a week so really hitting a weakness for me (i still suck at squatting although getting better.)

i will definitely look into westside more once this LP is done (i figure two months of SS after 3 months of 70's big).
Overall sounds like a good plan. Westside can definitely be done in a globo since in some ways it is more traditional in its use of equipment. Its not like you are using 3 stations at once in a metcon, and at a globo you can take advantage of some the nicer machines for assistance work. And if you still love some of the classic CF movments, they can function as asst work at times--HSPUs, L-sits, probably to some extent muscle ups and other ring stuff. Sometimes you might hog the power rack on a dynamic day or the beginning of max effort day but often times the power rack sits in the corner with a pile of dust.

If you get bands or chains down the road, depending on your globo you might want to let them know what you are doing so they don't flip out.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:23 PM   #102
Chris Mason
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Anthony Bainbridge View Post
Chris, I know you hate IPF because we actually squat below parallel, but you did say "regardless of federation." How many national/world record holders in the IPF are using Westside?
Good question, I don't honestly know, I know there are many, many feds and virtually every one has Westside practitioners, or those who use Westside techniques.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:28 PM   #103
Chris Mason
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Eric A. Brown View Post
From having judged I have no idea how many thousands of squats. First time in the judges chair was late 80's. Hell, I caught 964 when Moses Battles dumped it (I was spotting one side). Of course, he went below parallel before losing it on the way up. I have no problem calling a lift that should never have passed. Ever. In any competition worthy of the name, a **** lift.

If a lift is no good, it is no good. Below parallel means below parallel. And it says "below parallel" in their rulebook.

Can I slap the puck at the net and have it count as a goal because I got "close enough?" Of course not.

Can I run 95 meters and count that as my 100 m time? Of course not.

Athletic competition has merit only when all meet the same standard. Otherwise, if some people get a pass to ignore the rules, competition becomes meaningless. I have no problem (well, okay, I don't like it but you know what I mean) if I get beat by someone who played by the same rules. Life is like that -- you do not always win. However, when someone who competes and is compared against others who are held to a higher standard, this is cheating, pure and simple.

And it is dishonorable.

Being an athlete is about more than just numbers.

Ok Eric, your honor shall stay intact, of that I am sure.

Actually, just to clarify, you may want to read their rules regarding a squat again.

The bottom line is you were not at the meet. If you are who you say you are then YOU, of all people, should know better than to call a lift based on a video posted on the net.

Shame on you Mr. honorary competitor and judge...
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:35 PM   #104
Chris Mason
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

Since a few people here really get hung up on semantics, and my use of the word 'crap', allow me to clarify.

I think SS is a viable program which will work for a period of time. Does that make it optimal, or even close for any level lifter? The answer in my book is no.

Now, when comparing Westside to SS it does not have the same shortcomings. I have seen it work equally well for men and women of all levels of lifting experience. From the rote beginner to the most advanced lifter. Westside, when compared to all other training systems I have seen and or practiced, is superior and lot closer to the ever elusive optimal.

These are my thoughts in a nutshell. I created this thread because to me, the ridiculous strength and progress of the Westside lifters and those who train like them is verification of the program's efficacy. For those of you who feel moving a squat from 200 - 400 lbs is proof of the superiority of SS, well, I say you have too limited of a perspective to be a valid judge.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:46 PM   #105
Michael Loucas
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Since a few people here really get hung up on semantics, and my use of the word 'crap', allow me to clarify.

I think SS is a viable program which will work for a period of time. Does that make it optimal, or even close for any level lifter? The answer in my book is no.

Now, when comparing Westside to SS it does not have the same shortcomings. I have seen it work equally well for men and women of all levels of lifting experience. From the rote beginner to the most advanced lifter. Westside, when compared to all other training systems I have seen and or practiced, is superior and lot closer to the ever elusive optimal.

These are my thoughts in a nutshell. I created this thread because to me, the ridiculous strength and progress of the Westside lifters and those who train like them is verification of the program's efficacy. For those of you who feel moving a squat from 200 - 400 lbs is proof of the superiority of SS, well, I say you have too limited of a perspective to be a valid judge.
I personally haven't tried westside yet, and don't doubt that it builds strength at a faster rate than linear progression.

Do you think that a beginning trainee would be able to begin westside with no in person coaching and be able to take full advantage of the strength gains presented by westside? I have no doubt in my mind that it is superior in creating monsterous human beings if under the supervision of an experienced coach.

My concern would be they themselves having to figure out which weaknesses they have, what assistance exercises to use to strengthen their weaknesses if they've never been exposed to strength training before, especially because there are so many.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:57 PM   #106
Chris Mason
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Michael Loucas View Post
I personally haven't tried westside yet, and don't doubt that it builds strength at a faster rate than linear progression.

Do you think that a beginning trainee would be able to begin westside with no in person coaching and be able to take full advantage of the strength gains presented by westside? I have no doubt in my mind that it is superior in creating monsterous human beings if under the supervision of an experienced coach.

My concern would be they themselves having to figure out which weaknesses they have, what assistance exercises to use to strengthen their weaknesses if they've never been exposed to strength training before, especially because there are so many.
I honestly think it can be done. One way you can figure out your weaknesses is by experimenting with assistance work and see which aid you the most.

You would,of course, have to train within power cage to do the program safely alone, but that is about it. I am confident everyone here can watch videos of exercises and learn how to perform them correctly on their own if they are dedicated to doing so, PLUS you guys even have a form check forum.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:19 AM   #107
Eric A. Brown
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Ok Eric, your honor shall stay intact, of that I am sure.

Actually, just to clarify, you may want to read their rules regarding a squat again.

The bottom line is you were not at the meet. If you are who you say you are then YOU, of all people, should know better than to call a lift based on a video posted on the net.

Shame on you Mr. honorary competitor and judge...
I have just as much right to an opinion as anyone else. Have been at one meet where he had a squat that was incredibly high get passed. This one did not look any lower.

I am not happy with the judging in many federations. No, you do not need to leave skid-marks on the floor, but below parallel means exactly that. Everyone can come up with every excuse in the world to not break parallel, but when I have witnessed it first hand (no, not this particular lift but enough to, well, form an opinion on their interpretation of the rules) it is not all that hard to recognize a pattern.

Of course, the SPF could quit making it against the rules for people to take videos of their squats from the sides. Why does this occur, I wonder?

Counter-example: I have no problem thinking that Bridges got screwed at the Arnold. My opinion. I am going to stick to it as well. And voice it when so inclined.

If people post their lifts on the net, they need to be prepared for criticism.
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:10 PM   #108
Chris Mason
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

Read the rules. You keep using a term they do not use.

You have just as much of a right to an opinion as anyone else? That's what I love about our entitled society, everyone thinks they have a right to everything.

Anyway, again, you were not there. If you would say that based upon the video the lift looked high I might agree with you, but to go on a rant about it being a bad lift without having a good side view at the meet is horribly presumptuous and frankly shows ignorance.
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:18 PM   #109
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Read the rules. You keep using a term they do not use.
From the rules Robert posted above:

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1. A legal squat is performed when the top of the upper thigh at the hip (the �crease� of the hip) passes below the height of the knee.
I'd like to see video of anyone who can meet that standard without taking the thigh "below parallel."

Katherine
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Old 08-29-2011, 01:36 PM   #110
Eric A. Brown
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Re: For ANYONE that questions Westside

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Read the rules. You keep using a term they do not use.

You have just as much of a right to an opinion as anyone else? That's what I love about our entitled society, everyone thinks they have a right to everything.

Anyway, again, you were not there. If you would say that based upon the video the lift looked high I might agree with you, but to go on a rant about it being a bad lift without having a good side view at the meet is horribly presumptuous and frankly shows ignorance.
Yes, I have a right to an opinion. So do you.

Because I chose to exercise this right I get insulted?

Stellar, positively stellar.

And again with the sweeping generalizations and straw man arguments. There is very little I feel entitled to. However, the right to express myself is certainly something I do entitled to. If you have a problem with people expressing their opinions, or feeling that they are allowed to do so, I find it odd that you are on a board that serves that very purpose.
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