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Old 08-20-2006, 08:18 PM   #21
Ted Williams
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MMA events are no real fighting, first and foremost. Just because you see someone beat on someone else in a ring doesn't mean they can do the same in a self defense situation. I didn't think KM was created for sport, so comparing it to a sporting event is a non-starter.
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:47 AM   #22
Jay Hanewinkel
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That paragraph is exactly why it is easy to sell and market even if it doesn't work.
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Old 08-21-2006, 05:14 AM   #23
David Stegman
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Patrick, your post is close to how I have felt about Krav as well. For "basic" self-defense I think it's an ok start. At least your average person will come out of some of the Krav training with a better sense of "awareness" etc.

But, I also agree with Jay Hanewinkel here. A lot of marketing goes into Krav. and for someone that wants long term skills I wouldn't put too much confindence into it. To be honest when I first started seeing Krav and Krav techniques the first thing that popped in my head was "Oh, one-step sparring with more throat, knee, groin and eye shots" mixed in with a lot of group cardio....it wasn't like it was revolutionary or anything.

Take away silly karate uniforms, belts, formality, and tradition...put hand wraps on everyone and make them feel like they are part of a machine or a deadly weapon and you have a lot of what Krav sells. If it makes people learn a "little" sef-defense then I think it's a good thing. It also puts some of that missing money from adult students that so many Karate instructors have been missing for so long. Find the need and fill it.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:11 AM   #24
Patrick Johnston
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David:

I agree with you to a point. I believe that KM has a great approach to self-defense. I also think that it might be the case that KM might have gone overboard with the licensing of its product. I know that it is not difficult for a martial arts school to gain permission to teach KM. This is precisely why in my previous post I recommend a "good" KM school. I would not just rush out and sign up for KM classes because they were offered. In fact, where I live there is a KM school. However, I don't train there and don't believe that I ever will. I stick to boxing and BJJ. Were I to move to a new town, I would look for KM. Why? Because I believe that KM is a good method for learning to defend one's self...if taught correctly by someone who knows what they are doing. I will repeat that, in my experience, Brand-X knows what they are doing. I know there are others out there just like them. I also know that there are place where KM is just an afterthought to the main curriculum. This fact doesn't negate the contention that KM, the system and methodology, are quite effective. One just needs to seperate the system for the marketing.
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Old 08-21-2006, 07:58 AM   #25
Mike Kirkpatrick
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Ted, why do you say that? The difference I see is that MMA is fought in a cage with 2 well trained and experienced fighters, and the guy who is the most skilled wins. Whereas in a Self-defense/street fight is fought (for the most part) against 2 untrained guys throwing alot of crappy punches and kicks that aren't that effective...the guy who lands the lucky shot wins. I promise you, I don't think that Joe Thug in a local bar would want to mess with some of the guys on our competition team...because they spar 4-5 days a week for about 2 hours a day, while he is off drinking beer and watching TV.

My post has nothing to do with KM, because I know nothing about it. But the assertion that MMA fighters don't use effective methods outside the cage is ridiculous in my opinion.
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:15 AM   #26
David Stegman
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True Patrick....but I also think that give it a few more years and Krav will be one of the most watered down systems around. It is on the fast track (due to marketing) to becoming just like karate, tkd, and the like. I think it will get to that point faster than any other martial art in that aspect.

Sure there will be a few "legit" schools around but for the most part it will become more and more like good ole "potty karate" at some point.
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:18 AM   #27
Daniel Foster
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I just want to add my 2cents for what its worth. I too have a backround in BJJ and I have a little bit of exposure to Krav.My dad has been training in Krav for about a year.He switched from BJJ to Krav.The technigues that are shown are suppose to be easy to learn so that the soldier could pick up the technigue quickly and use it on the battfield under stressful situatuion. The more detail thats but into the technigue the harder it is for a person to use it under stress. I have learned a technigue once and i am still able to able to perform the move.And talking about marketing, the reason grappling is now taught in the military because of the marketing of Rorian Gracie
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Old 08-21-2006, 08:32 AM   #28
David Stegman
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True Danile...BJJ is highly marketed but it still remains extremely effective. No one that trains Martial Arts should overlook BJJ for ground skills. There is a reason whythe military uses a lot of BJJ techniques. Plain and simple....it works.

But like most things that do work....it takes more time to learn and become something you can use effectively. Be careful with anything that states you can learn and apply it fast etc.

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Old 08-21-2006, 08:43 AM   #29
Mike Kirkpatrick
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I have heard that the 75th Rangers, 173rd ABN BDE, and 1SFG have all been taught BJJ by the Gracies...but not positive. Now that's "Learning from the best".
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Old 08-21-2006, 09:05 AM   #30
Daniel Foster
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David i am not arguing the effectiveness of BJJ. I am a BJJ person to the core thats why my dad does it and not me.Heck most of the guys i know that do Krav also do BJJ even one of the top instructures said he trained with Rickson Gracie. Like anything your martial art should takes blood sweet and tears to become good at. Water down of the art can happen in any martial art,even in BJJ.Its up to the instructors to make sure that does not happen, but i belief sometimes the might dollar gets a hold of them.

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