CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-24-2009, 05:46 PM   #1
Chandler Walker
Affiliate Chandler Walker is offline
 
Chandler Walker's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reno  NV
Posts: 10
Mike Caviston

Mike Caviston was recently askeda bout his opinion on Crossfit for BUD/s. Here's the thread:

http://sealswcc.com/forum/topic.php?id=150 (wfs)

Thoughts?
 
Old 12-24-2009, 05:53 PM   #2
Christian Holm
Member Christian Holm is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Newbury Park  CA
Posts: 34
Re: Mike Caviston

I just posted that on NavySEALs.com to see what SEALFit thought. I'm training for BUD/s also, but I plan on using BrassRing and SEALFit once I get my pst scores where they need to be. They have their own workout plan called the PTG, it seems like a good way to get your pst scores up, but you can't match the intensity of crossfit. However, I do agree that crossfit isn't enough for the Special Forces Pipeline, but their are much harder programs that incorporate crossfit with more strength and volume such as Military Athlete, SEALFit, and BrassRing Fitness.
 
Old 12-24-2009, 08:53 PM   #3
John McBrien
Member John McBrien is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Blacksburg  VA
Posts: 332
Re: Mike Caviston

Christian, would you mind posting a link to that particular thread? I would be interested in hearing SEALFit coaches' input as well as thoughts from this board's members.
 
Old 12-24-2009, 09:11 PM   #4
Christian Holm
Member Christian Holm is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Newbury Park  CA
Posts: 34
Re: Mike Caviston

I would if I knew how but you can look it up in person on NavySEALs.com/forums under SEALFit. Regardless, there are several SEALs who have used similar guides like 12 weeks to BUD/s and have been left wanting once they got to BUD/s because of the untouched strength and intensity component. However, the PTG does include several days of weightlifting, but advises against high rep Oly lifts to avoid injury.
 
Old 12-24-2009, 09:27 PM   #5
Nathan Kulas
Member Nathan Kulas is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Brunswick  ME
Posts: 172
Re: Mike Caviston

I agree with a lot of what Mike said there - and I think if most of the people here take a look, they do to.

As a "for instance", I frequently see threads where people ask what type of weight they should be able to push before starting CrossFit - and people give answers that suggest SS or othe strength training before getting going into CrossFit. This falls in line with his idea that strength, endurance, etc. are best trained through isolating each type of work.

Otherwise, as he is addressing BUD/S specifically - you can already see that I have recommended to people going to Ranger selection, etc. that they should focus more on endurance - a component of fitness that is definitely neglected more than necessary here.

Edit: That's not to say I agree with everything he said. For instance - shortening the range of motion - where does he get that idea? IMHO a HSPU full ROM is head to floor, hands on ground. Instead, we increase the ROM by adding parallettes.

Also, I don't think anyone in CrossFit will suggest that CF will prepare you for any specialised training, which BUD/S, Ranger selection, etc. certainly are - just like the WODs won't prepare you for an Iron Man. On the other hand, someone doing CF going into BUD/S or ranger school is probably in better standing than someone preparing for the Iron Man or Marathon.

My 2 cents.
__________________
27/m/68"/185# - 300 BP, 435 DL, 435 BS, 205 Clean, 100# wtd pull-up, 3:23 Fran, 22:50 Angie, 25 Cindy rds, 20:17 5K Row, 7:31 2K Row, 5:43 1 mile run

Last edited by Nathan Kulas; 12-24-2009 at 09:48 PM..
 
Old 12-24-2009, 09:39 PM   #6
Chandler Walker
Affiliate Chandler Walker is offline
 
Chandler Walker's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Reno  NV
Posts: 10
Re: Mike Caviston

Link to NSC forum on this topic

http://navyseals.com/forums/showthre...499#post227499 (wfs)
 
Old 12-24-2009, 10:25 PM   #7
Alex Europa
Affiliate Alex Europa is offline
 
Alex Europa's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Waialua  HI
Posts: 1,016
Re: Mike Caviston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas View Post
I agree with a lot of what Mike said there - and I think if most of the people here take a look, they do to.

As a "for instance", I frequently see threads where people ask what type of weight they should be able to push before starting CrossFit - and people give answers that suggest SS or othe strength training before getting going into CrossFit. This falls in line with his idea that strength, endurance, etc. are best trained through isolating each type of work.
I generally don't agree with this view. SS is awesome, I've done a few cycles of it, but I pretty much only recommend it to really skinny people who need to put on significant amounts of muscle/size. Otherwise, I've seen CrossFit (mainpage and various other affiliates' programming) get people plenty strong (for GPP purposes) while simultaneously building well-rounded metabolic conditioning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas View Post
Otherwise, as he is addressing BUD/S specifically - you can already see that I have recommended to people going to Ranger selection, etc. that they should focus more on endurance - a component of fitness that is definitely neglected more than necessary here.
Neglected? For GPP? I don't agree with that (see: Training 2 Miles to Run 100 - W/F/S). However, for someone heading to a selection pipeline, it most definitely is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Kulas View Post
Also, I don't think anyone in CrossFit will suggest that CF will prepare you for any specialised training, which BUD/S, Ranger selection, etc. certainly are - just like the WODs won't prepare you for an Iron Man. On the other hand, someone doing CF going into BUD/S or ranger school is probably in better standing than someone preparing for the Iron Man or Marathon.
Completely agree.


As for the Calviston stuff, his opinion on high-rep strength training (i.e., O-lifting) is retarded at best. As someone else said in one of the other forums: the boats, logs, gear, etc... don't get any lighter. Not to mention the ability to maintain a stabilized midline that comes from high rep, pseudo-heavy lifting (slow lifts and o-lifts).

As for the effectiveness of properly implemented CrossFit-style training for BUD/S candidates: SEALFit claims a 90% success rate at BUD/S, which if accurate is a very telling statistic.

- Alex
__________________
CrossFit Barbarian Fitness / Flickr
"Every man dies. Not every man truly lives."
 
Old 12-24-2009, 10:32 PM   #8
Ken Weber
Member Ken Weber is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago  IL
Posts: 70
Re: Mike Caviston

I think Mr. Caviston's point is that BUD/S is an event, and as such should be trained for specifically. CrossFit is designed as a GPP program and does it's job superbly. BUT for someone training to go to BUD/S or any other SOF pipeline, where the majority of the requirements are known, they will most likely get better results and better preperation by training specifically to be able to meet those requirements.

And I'm pretty sure he never advised against doing Oly lifts, I believe he suggests that you not attempt those lifts unless you have been properly coached in the correct execution of those lifts as to avoid injury. This, I might add, is good advice for anyone, CrossFitters included.

BTW, I'm not "taking sides", it's just that as a future SOF candidate myself, I highly respect Mr. Caviston's experience and opinion, as do I respect the wealth of knowledge and experience that CrossFit has provided. I just hope that everyone here doesn't automatically bash Mr. Caviston because he didn't automatically endorse CrossFit as the preferred training method for his candidates.

Good luck and merry christmas to all!

- Ken
 
Old 12-24-2009, 11:32 PM   #9
Alex Europa
Affiliate Alex Europa is offline
 
Alex Europa's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Waialua  HI
Posts: 1,016
Re: Mike Caviston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Weber View Post
I think Mr. Caviston's point is that BUD/S is an event, and as such should be trained for specifically. CrossFit is designed as a GPP program and does it's job superbly. BUT for someone training to go to BUD/S or any other SOF pipeline, where the majority of the requirements are known, they will most likely get better results and better preperation by training specifically to be able to meet those requirements.
The mainpage is GPP "specific," but SEALFit is BUD/S specific...and again, if their claim of 90% success rate is accurate (which I have no reason to doubt), then I would say that it is a great indicator that there are better ways to go about BUD/S prep than the stuff that is on the SEAL/SWCC site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Weber View Post
And I'm pretty sure he never advised against doing Oly lifts...
Actually he does:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Calviston
Don’t do too many workouts that try to blend strength and endurance. For example, don’t do high rep workouts using Olympic lifts. Make sure you get good instruction before doing Olympic lifts, period. Run and swim for endurance, and for strength lift heavy weights for 6-12 reps with adequate rest between sets
What about singles and triples for strength? Instead he defaults to the standard bodybuilding (read: sarcoplasmic hypertrophy inducing) rep scheme...please explain to me how this is in anyway beneficial to prospective BUD/S students who specifically need less bodyweight and a higher power-to-weight ratio? Also, if anyone at this point is questioning the ability of CrossFit-esque WODs to build endurance, then they clearly have never had any experience with training athletes in that modality. Running and swimming are critical to a BUD/S candidate's success, but they are NOT the only way to build endurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Weber View Post
BTW, I'm not "taking sides", it's just that as a future SOF candidate myself, I highly respect Mr. Caviston's experience and opinion
What about the opinions of Andy Stumpf and Dave Castro...former BUD/S instructors that avidly endorse CrossFit for future candidates and state that they use named WODs (not to mention kipping pullups, KB swings, and the like) at BUD/S on a regular basis? Does that not warrant attention as well?

- Alex
__________________
CrossFit Barbarian Fitness / Flickr
"Every man dies. Not every man truly lives."

Last edited by Alex Europa; 12-24-2009 at 11:39 PM..
 
Old 12-25-2009, 12:32 AM   #10
Ken Weber
Member Ken Weber is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Chicago  IL
Posts: 70
Re: Mike Caviston

You make valid points, and for the record I wasn't being argumentative and I didn't mean to start an argument. Plus believe it or not my post wasn't directed at you specifically, but to the thread as a whole. Nevertheless I just meant that maybe the Director of Fitness at the Naval Special Warfare Center might know a thing or two and shouldn't be thrown under the bus straight away...but I'm sure you'll have an answer to this as well : )

But either way you win, merry christmas!

Last edited by Ken Weber; 12-25-2009 at 12:48 AM..
 
Closed Thread


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mike vs. Joe Joe Barker Workout Logs 52 11-24-2008 03:01 PM
Mike Romo Mike Romo Workout Logs 17 05-10-2008 02:02 PM
Iron Mike Anthony Bainbridge CrossPit 11 01-14-2007 11:05 AM
Mike B do you Greg Kemp Workout of the Day 6 03-29-2005 06:32 PM
Mike Minium is Mean! Jonathan Kessler Workout of the Day 14 12-20-2004 05:08 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:46 AM.


CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.