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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 07-30-2008, 08:12 AM   #81
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

The results posted on here is data, not evidence. In the sense of scientific evidence. It hasn't been analyzed to determine causality vs correlation. For example one could discover that ice cream sales increase at the same time drowning deaths do, which could be "evidence" that ice cream causes drownings, but obviously the two happen at the same time without one causing the other. Has Cf probably been the most likely reason that people improved their fitness, yes? But without analyzing it, it's merely data collected, not proof, or evidence.
 
Old 07-30-2008, 08:46 AM   #82
Scott Borre
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
The results posted on here is data, not evidence. In the sense of scientific evidence. It hasn't been analyzed to determine causality vs correlation. For example one could discover that ice cream sales increase at the same time drowning deaths do, which could be "evidence" that ice cream causes drownings, but obviously the two happen at the same time without one causing the other. Has Cf probably been the most likely reason that people improved their fitness, yes? But without analyzing it, it's merely data collected, not proof, or evidence.
Not true.

I did A and achieved X level of fitness
I did B and achieved Y level of fitness.

B was the primary cause of me going from X to Y.

A was sitting on my ***
B was following the CrossFit program.

It would be foolish to assert that exercise has no causal relationship with improved fitness. It would be further foolish to say that a change in a program (diet + exercise) occuring at the same time as an increase in the rate of improvement of fitness is a correlation and not causation.

Because we have the two directly related and 'connected' we can assert a causal relationship. Just as one can assert that 'Because I lifted the weight it moved.' You wouldn't say 'well I lifted the weight...and it moved... which means there's a correlation between me lifting a weight and it moving.' We aren't going to find out later that 'well he happened to be lifting the weight, but it only moved because a mage was standing beside him casting a levitation spell.' And if it does then we'll merely have to rewrite our history books.
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Old 07-30-2008, 08:54 AM   #83
Scott Mahn
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

It's all about "to what end," "compared to what?" and "for whom?"

I think we'd all agree that CrossFit leads to better fitness than laying on the sofa eating twinkies. I think we'd also agree it wont give you as much absolute strength as, say, a WSB lifting program, and wont make you as good a marathoner as an LSD based program.

I don't have a major point here, I'm just surprised that after 9 pages and the number of times words like "proof," "evidence," "science," "data," etc. have been used nobody has mentioned what sort of metrics they're interested in.

My own suspicion is that it would test very well in a sports specific sense - IOW, that CF will make you a better CFer more efficatiously than pretty much any other program. But I similalry suspect it would not test as well as programs geared specifically toward other metrics, like gymnastics, strength, GS ketbell, endurance, etc.

For instance, Steve Cotter once did a WoD and got smoked by CrossFitters. Does that mean the CFers are better athletes, or just more practiced at the WoDs. How many CFers think they can beat SC in a kettlebell challenge? How many think they can out powerlift a powerlifter?

CF should certainly be the most efficatious route to better CFing, but if that's not the standard something else might well do better. So what should be the standard? THAT is the question.
 
Old 07-30-2008, 09:17 AM   #84
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

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Originally Posted by Scott Borre View Post
Not true.

I did A and achieved X level of fitness
I did B and achieved Y level of fitness.

B was the primary cause of me going from X to Y.

A was sitting on my ***
B was following the CrossFit program.

It would be foolish to assert that exercise has no causal relationship with improved fitness. It would be further foolish to say that a change in a program (diet + exercise) occuring at the same time as an increase in the rate of improvement of fitness is a correlation and not causation.

Because we have the two directly related and 'connected' we can assert a causal relationship. Just as one can assert that 'Because I lifted the weight it moved.' You wouldn't say 'well I lifted the weight...and it moved... which means there's a correlation between me lifting a weight and it moving.' We aren't going to find out later that 'well he happened to be lifting the weight, but it only moved because a mage was standing beside him casting a levitation spell.' And if it does then we'll merely have to rewrite our history books.
Once again you're confusing data with science and evidence. Crossfit is touted as being evidence based, and superior to other modalities of training, yet this ascertation is made without any comparisons or hard data. VO2 maxes, power outputs via force plates, 1 RM's, vertical leaping ability, work time to failure have not been documented for CF'rs and recorded and anlalyzed. The crux of most of the arguments on here seem to be

"I did cf, and I got stronger and fitter, and if you doubt CF, then it's not for you". Your comparison is not what I'm talking about. One of the most basic ascertations people make is exercise is an effective tool for weight loss, but despite that "common knowledge" the science does not support that causal relationship. No one is doubting that CF is an effective program, but people (including coach) continually tout it as "evidence based" and espouse it over other programs, yet are not willing to offer the program up to the types of scrutiny many other programs have been subjected to.
 
Old 07-30-2008, 09:20 AM   #85
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Johns View Post

http://www.crossfit.com/journal/libr...ed_Fitness.pdf (wfs)

Sorry if someone already linked this.
I just got done reading that article, and it seems Coaches argument boils down to "If others have questions or doubts about CF, it is due to jealousy over the superiority of Cf to said program, and calls for validity and data are based on such jealousy
 
Old 07-30-2008, 01:46 PM   #86
Gavin Harrison
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

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Originally Posted by Phillip Garrisonq View Post
the types of scrutiny many other programs have been subjected to.
Such as? (Curiosity).
 
Old 07-30-2008, 02:23 PM   #87
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

why dont we have 20 people document their CFT's and vo2 max from one cft, to the next. ten of them follow WOD. ten follow P90X

do the same for starting strength, etc.

i'd be down.

it will show what is better at impovng cft and vo2 max, p90x or cf.

who's in
 
Old 07-30-2008, 02:33 PM   #88
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

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Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison View Post
Such as? (Curiosity).
I just listed them.
 
Old 07-30-2008, 02:34 PM   #89
Phillip Garrison
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

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Originally Posted by Matthew Vassallo View Post
why dont we have 20 people document their CFT's and vo2 max from one cft, to the next. ten of them follow WOD. ten follow P90X

do the same for starting strength, etc.

i'd be down.

it will show what is better at impovng cft and vo2 max, p90x or cf.

who's in

I'mnot understanding your proprosed study?
 
Old 07-30-2008, 02:38 PM   #90
George Mounce
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Re: Studies to confirm/prove CrossFit efficacy

You have more to contend with than just CrossFit.

I guaruntee you that people who do CrossFit/P90X/SS/Whatever and eat only McDonald's will do worse than people who have a strict diet and do those things. You can have so many different ways to skew the evidence you won't find what you are looking for in the end.

You need a hypothesis for whatever it is you are looking for - I personally would start with the 10 tenets of fitness as outlined and see how other programs would work to meet those 10 tenets versus CrossFit.

So many variables, I wish you all luck in this venture.
 
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