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Old 07-06-2013, 03:40 PM   #1
Evan Peikon
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Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

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article written on the ATP-CP battery and its application to crossfit
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:24 PM   #2
Sean Seale
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

Great read. Could you develop on the "Aerobic monster with a huge deadlift" part?

Also you said 1RM Snatch and then Power clean. I assume you meant 1RM Power Clean?
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:47 PM   #3
Evan Peikon
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

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Originally Posted by Sean Seale View Post
Great read. Could you develop on the "Aerobic monster with a huge deadlift" part?

Also you said 1RM Snatch and then Power clean. I assume you meant 1RM Power Clean?
thanks for catching that mistake. you correct that it was supposed to say 1RM power Clean.

in regards to the aerobic monster part:
-when someone looks stoic while performing a workout, they are most likely in the oxidative pathway (ie- no ugly glycolytic painful work). meaning they are operating at a sub maximal level (though their 85% may be better than everyone else's 100%). think someone like froning who blows through the workout and walks away without looking to taxed.
In regards to the monster deadlift that was just to meant to be that they are very strong.
An aerobic monster alone won't cut it since they won't have the strength/ muscle endurance to carry them (think an elite 3200m runner). But if they are an aerobic monster with a large strength base then they are set.

Thanks probably the simplest way I can explain what I was trying to express. Im tying this from my phone though so It may be a bit incoherent.
If that didn't completely answer your question just tell me and ill address whatever you need.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:34 PM   #4
Matt Kohn
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

Very interesting and great info here Evan -- what is your background in fitness? I have never heard of the ATP-CP Battery - is it a rather new fitness principle or what?
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:20 PM   #5
Kevin Johnson
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

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Originally Posted by Evan Peikon View Post
But if they are an aerobic monster with a large strength base then they are set.
haven't read article yet, but i don't believe this to be entirely true. at 170 lbs i have deadlifted 500 and squatted 435 and can run a 5:30 mile currently, but if a wod called for double unders, muscle ups, handstand walks, or snatches, i'd end up in last place every time.
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Old 07-06-2013, 09:44 PM   #6
Dylan Forbes
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

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Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
haven't read article yet, but i don't believe this to be entirely true. at 170 lbs i have deadlifted 500 and squatted 435 and can run a 5:30 mile currently, but if a wod called for double unders, muscle ups, handstand walks, or snatches, i'd end up in last place every time.
There's a difference between being a great athlete and being able to do party tricks. You're the former
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:39 PM   #7
Jeff Enge
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

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Originally Posted by Dylan Forbes View Post
There's a difference between being a great athlete and being able to do party tricks. You're the former
I would argue that two of those listed things are anything but "party tricks."

Athleticism is much more than maximal strength and oxidative metabolic conditioning...
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:41 PM   #8
Jeff Enge
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

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Originally Posted by Matt Kohn View Post
Very interesting and great info here Evan -- what is your background in fitness? I have never heard of the ATP-CP Battery - is it a rather new fitness principle or what?
ATP-CP is the metabolic pathway harnessed during efforts of something like 30 seconds or less. Something like a heavy lift, or running sprints 200m or less for most people.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:03 AM   #9
Paul Gowder
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

Here's something really striking:

"This method is often considered a “Heavy Metcon”. (Ie- a technical movement or heavy weight causes a bottleneck, forcing you to rest and recharge your battery before continuing"

I've noticed that the technical movements (esp. oly) are, in fact, a lot more tiring. Why is that? (Is it just recruiting more muscles?)

Also, a lot of people seem to say that ATP-CP is about intensity in the abstract, but it seems like there's a difference between cardio intensity (e.g. HIIT cardio, sprints, etc.) and lifting intensity. I at least am lots and lots better at sprints than I am at doing a bunch of cleans in a row, and I'm no aerobic monster...

Last edited by Paul Gowder : 07-07-2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 04:11 AM   #10
Evan Peikon
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Re: Why absolute strength isn't everything for a crossfit athlete

Ill try to address everyone at once here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Kohn View Post
Very interesting and great info here Evan -- what is your background in fitness? I have never heard of the ATP-CP Battery - is it a rather new fitness principle or what?
For my full background you can check out the about me on the site. But for my background as it relates to an article on this topic I'm working on my degree in Biochemistry with a focus in physiology. and for the programming aspect I've gotten the program design certification from OPT.
And in regards to ATP-CP battery Jeff was correct. ATP-CP is the metabolic system. ATP-CP battery is just a way to describe how the energy system work as it applies to sport.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson View Post
haven't read article yet, but i don't believe this to be entirely true. at 170 lbs i have deadlifted 500 and squatted 435 and can run a 5:30 mile currently, but if a wod called for double unders, muscle ups, handstand walks, or snatches, i'd end up in last place every time.
Id argue that your just lacking in technical proficiency then.
Also take into account that theres more to a workout that just your physical capabilities. Your also have the mental aspect, how well you tolerate pain, feedback from brain to body etc.
Everything else being equal though between two guys, the CP-battery may be what decided the winner or allows the weaker guy to win.
think crossfit games where everyone has very similar WOD times, but varying strength levels. So of those guys are strong/aerobic, some are weaker/ have good batteries (still aerobic too), but it just goes to show that based on your own individual physiology you operate of a different system that others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Enge View Post
ATP-CP is the metabolic pathway harnessed during efforts of something like 30 seconds or less. Something like a heavy lift, or running sprints 200m or less for most people.
Correct. Not to be confused with the Anaerobic A-lactic system which is also in that time frame though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Gowder View Post
Here's something really striking:

"This method is often considered a “Heavy Metcon”. (Ie- a technical movement or heavy weight causes a bottleneck, forcing you to rest and recharge your battery before continuing"

I've noticed that the technical movements (esp. oly) are, in fact, a lot more tiring. Why is that? (Is it just recruiting more muscles?)

Also, a lot of people seem to say that ATP-CP is about intensity in the abstract, but it seems like there's a difference between cardio intensity (e.g. HIIT cardio, sprints, etc.) and lifting intensity. I at least am lots and lots better at sprints than I am at doing a bunch of cleans in a row, and I'm no aerobic monster...
To start ATP-CP is used on lighter weights too, albeit a small amount (so you can compare it to the battery not being drained as much).
your confusion may be stemming from the fact that your lumping Hit cardio, sprints, and aerobic system all into the same category. Being good at sprint isn't very much related to being what id call an aerobic monster.
by aerobic monster I'm referring to a top level guy who can sustain a VERY high power output for a prolonged period of time or over many efforts. So think of a two miler who can run back to back 2 mile repeats @ 5:30 pace with 60 sec rest. Its being extremely aerobic to the point that you cannot truly tap other energy systems any more that would qualify you as an "aerobic monster".
As an example I was that 2-miler, and it took me months of training in the shorter range to be able to tap A-lactic on a short sprint because i was so overly aerobic.
Not knowing anything about you I can't say why you'd have trouble or thrive in a given area, but I can say that if your training GPP or to be a generalist you probably have a more balanced fitness and work predominantly in the "middle ground" of energy systems (i.e.-glycolytic).
Id also have to see you to know why your not good at higher volume cleans. Is it a technical issue, CP battery issue, muscular endurance...etc.

So what I'm getting at is that its not all black & white, but all else being equal or similar between athlete, have a good CP-battery is a big advantage and is something that needs to be trained for any crossfit athlete since it is overlooked completely by most.

*I just tangented to the point that I probably caused more confusion... if anyone needs more clarification just ask.
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