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Old 12-21-2003, 04:40 AM   #1
Matt Goers
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So how bout it, when you're in Ketosis does your body try to turn catabolic even with sufficient protein consumption? I've been reading around and it goes both ways. The same with Glucagon....

Will either of these slow or stop muscle growth?

Thanks,

Matt
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Old 12-21-2003, 07:34 AM   #2
Kevin Roddy
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I've been looking over the edge of the cliff of ketosis for a while now, and boy, is it a far trip down. I've seen scientific research up the wahoo both promoting and downing ketosis, so I'd like to hear some info on this as well.
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Old 12-21-2003, 08:48 AM   #3
Matt Goers
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-Ketosis has a protein sparing effect, assuming that you are consuming adequate quantities of protein and calories in the first place. Once in ketosis the body actually prefers ketones to glucose. Since the body has copious quanities of fat this means that there is no need to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis.

-Now, ketosis is different because when in the state of ketosis the brain will prefer ketones over glucose. For the dieter this is very good because the body will not have to break down protein for energy. In turn the body will be forced to use its fat reserves, a.k.a. your love handles, for its energy. This is why ketosis is such a good method of dieting.

-Now we know that ketosis presents a highly anti-catabolic environment even while on a reduced calorie diet.

-When there is no glycogen for the body to run off of, the pancreas releases glucagon. Glucagon is a catabolic hormone, since it is used to break down body tissues for energy. In our case glucagon is very important since it is used to convert free fatty acids into the energy substrate called a ketone. Ketones are free fatty acids broken down through a process that involves carnitine and glucagon. After the free fatty acids are processed in the liver the fats have been transformed into beta-hydroxybutyric and aceto-acetic acids, or, what you and I know them as, "ketones".

Borrowed from www.bodybuilding.com

Just some interesting points for anyone that would be interested. And by the way, I'm back down to the lowest I've been in about 5-6 months (since I quit my running for the most part), 171lbs on the gym scale (down from 175 in 2 days). All of it water weight I'm assuming, but I hope to be in ketosis by sometime tomorrow. I've only had about 12 grams of carbs today.... Any more info guys?
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Old 12-21-2003, 09:31 AM   #4
Roy
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You can find more ketone research at www.atkins.com
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Old 12-21-2003, 01:33 PM   #5
Kevin Roddy
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The main problem that I've been told is that ketosis can have negative effects on brain function, particularly that of the cerebral cortex.


http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magaz...einsanity3.htm

" The mobilization of fatty acids provides a ready source of fuel for the energy- starved heart and muscle tissue. However, excessive production of fatty acids results in the formation of keto acids (ketone bodies) in the liver. The ketone bodies enter the blood, causing ketosis and ketoacidosis. In addition, the ketone bodies are excreted in the urine worsening the osmotic diuresis caused by glucose.



Side Note: You will sometimes here about bodybuilders emphasizing a low carbohydrate, low sugar diet in order to achieve a low percentage of body fat. These uneducated and badly misinformed individuals will encourage going into ketosis as to “optimize” the body’s fat burning capabilities. Yet it is scientifically clear that being in such a state does not only create a poor environment for fat loss, but can be dangerous and even deadly as well. Metabolic and ketoacidosis suppress the higher nervous functions, causing a coma. Ultimately, the depression of the brain respiratory centers leads to death.



The fact of the matter is, the body needs glucose not only to function properly, but also to survive. "

Rebuttal, please? Hahahaha.
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Old 12-21-2003, 04:13 PM   #6
Paul Kayley
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This is a very cloudy area with widespread confusion abundant even among the medical world. As far as I understand this, acidosis occurs as the level of ketones accumulates because they are not being used as fuel by peripheral tissues, this mainly occurs with diabetes. If you make a gradual metabolic shift, in time the vast majority of tissues will adapt to use ketones rather than glucose (some argue as a preference)as fuel. All organs are capable of using ketones, except the liver. When all tissues have had the opportunity to keto-adapt, ketones will be removed from the blood at the same rate as they are produced. If the rate of production exceeds the consumption, then the body's ability to excrete the excess will also have adapted and improved (mainly expired by breath). When first becoming fat adapted, especially as an endurance athlete, you notice the taste of ketones in your breath when burning a lot of fat at high energy outputs. However, as the tissues adapt and the total volume of ketone consumption by all of the body's tissues peaks, this taste disappears because there is less need for excretion.

In nutrition there are 'essential fatty acids' and 'essential amino acids', but no essential carbohydrates! We do not need carbohydrates to survive. Glucose is produced via glucogenic aminos via gluconeogenesis.

How do you think paleolithic man survived the long winters? Modern man is glucose-adapted!

Carbohydrates can have very beneficial effects if treated as a recovery fuel, only to be used when muscle glycogen needs replenishing rapidly.

I have come to learn that, although not required, carbs are a great nutritional ergogenic aid if used correctly.

You will have to make up your own mind.

:happy: Merry Xmas

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Old 12-22-2003, 05:52 AM   #7
Matt Goers
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"a poor environment for fat loss"

I believe that to be false considering the facts, excreting ketones in urine, or fat in urine, fat, urine. How is this a 'poor environment'?

"can be dangerous and even deadly as well. Metabolic and ketoacidosis suppress the higher nervous functions, causing a coma."

Yes, for diabetics. Ketoacidosis is a term used almost exclusively to diabetes, and there are many sources that state if you are not there is no reason to worry.

I do not personally know of that sites beliefs, but I'm just gonna venture a guess and say they're supporters of high carb low fat diets. Am I out of line here?

Yes, Merry Christmas!
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Old 12-22-2003, 06:30 AM   #8
Kevin Roddy
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Matt,

ABC has articles written by different people. The guy who wrote those articles, who goes by the nick of Yu Yevon, is a supporter of carb cycling.

They actually do know quite a lot about nutrition, and aren't advocates of high-carb, low-fat diets either. But the way Yu downed on ketosis, It had me wondering what's up, because he's a pretty smart guy.

I can't do too much disrespect to ABC, because they're what got me into fitness in the first place, heh. :wink:
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Old 12-22-2003, 10:43 AM   #9
Matt Goers
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Are you coming on to me? :blush:

lol, for some reason it seems or seemed to me that I wouldn't reap near the awards of being low carb if I weren't in ketosis. I've been trying to keep it under 20 but its hard, but definately under 30g. My groggyness has went away and I feel great. Today I also but a Nitro Tech bar with 5 net grams of carbs and I will probably buy many more!

Thanks!
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Old 12-22-2003, 10:54 AM   #10
Matt Goers
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Another thing, aside from the color of your urine is there any other signs? There appeared to be little floating particles in the water as I examined it... lol, I don't think I've ever seen this before...
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