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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 02-08-2009, 10:49 PM   #11
Craig Massey
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
I think this community has pretty soundly shown that for people who enter the community without sufficient strength to do the workouts as RX'd, the most efficient way (not saying best, or only, or most fun) to really put up serious times on these workouts is to do SS or something similar for a few months, then switch to CF. There may be a temporary loss in fitness in order to achieve a longer term fitness goal, but I don't think there is anything so wrong with that.
(in the interest of full disclosure I will say that I'm on a GOMAD SS cycle right now )
What I find funny is that The Community means the people on this board, for the main part home CrossFitters. The Affiliates, who are too busy training people to have time to post here with great regularity and many of whom have given up doing so through being shouted down by the vocal minority ("keyboard ninjas" one called them), are quietly getting on taking people from zero fitness to as far as they want to go using scaled CrossFit and nothing else.

A bunch of us standing around and agreeing that stopping CrossFit to do SS is the only way to way to address a strength deficiency can't really match hundreds professional coaches training thousands of people all over the world and completely ignoring us. We're a bunch of guys sitting around in the backyard with beers in our hands deciding how the military or building construction or information technology or any other activity that requires specialised knowledge should be run.

I've seen one of the foremost Coaches in CrossFit ignored on this very forum when he dared to take time from actually teaching this stuff to try and explain why we're wrong. And not just once. He didn't have to do that, he certainly didn't have to do that more once, he did it because he cares about CrossFit and genuinely wants to see it done properly. Now he's gone to the trouble to explain very carefully how we can have our cake and eat it too. And, he's proved that it works.

Ignoring that is madness and it's driving people away from this forum. Good people. People who want to contribute for joy of CrossFit.

"Like shouting into an insane asylum" is how one of them described it recently. It's a shame that he was all to accurate.

Woops. My declaration of interest:
I abandoned this forum because of how I saw Jeff treated. While this was happening I hung around and was welcomed at the Brand X forum where people, including Jeff, took the time to explain CrossFit to me. I now help administer the CrossFitBrandX Forum for Jeff and Mikki and after having travelled to Ramona for my L1 and CF Kids certs am proud to call them my friends. I've never met finer human beings.
I wasn't the one who made the "insane asylum" comparison.

Last edited by Craig Massey : 02-08-2009 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Missing declaration of interest
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:55 PM   #12
Ryan Whipple
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Jeff: I understand now that you felt the need to respond to an increasing voice supporting strength. I would like to express the idea that got me into strength and has led me to encourage some to do the same:

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My point is that if you're a 25-year-old male with a max squat of 150 lbs., max deadlift of 200, and max press of 100 at a bodyweight of 150, then GPP should not be your first concern. Your CF workouts should be designed around, and should defer to, your strength program until such time as your strength and lean body mass are up high enough to make you a more efficient athlete. In my opinion.
-Rip on strength and GPP WFS
In the middle of a modified Nicole where I was doing pretty well (100 pullups and 10-400's) the pararescue unit from nearby showed up. They were doing a chipper metcon, but with really really really heavy things. And they were about twice my size. I realized that if I am really going to become fit in a meaningful way, I need to be able to move heavy things first, THEN I'll get around to moving them quickly. Watching them work out made me reconsider the pride I had placed in my quick, but heavily scaled Fran. In short, I'm the guy Rip is talking about in that quote from above. I think the reason that many people are being directed towards strength work is that more people in the community are noticing the same thing.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:10 PM   #13
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

FWIW, I think it's important to remember that the varied programming CF offers is part of its appeal. While a strength-focused program like SS might be the most efficient way for a dedicated athlete to improve strength, the best program of all is the one that a person actually follows. A person following CF, with or without additional strength work, will do far better than a person who plans to start SS "one day," or who abandons the SS program for whatever reason.

Katherine
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:21 PM   #14
Ryan Whipple
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Good point Katherine...we would all do well to keep the specific goals of others in mind when making recommendations.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:50 PM   #15
Jeff Martin
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Ryan,
I work for Rip occasionally. In fact he will be at Brand X this week. I don't have a beef with Rip or his beliefs. I can say that I took a guy 155# guy with a 175# back squat and a 275# deadlift to a 275# back squat and a 315# deadlift in 8 weeks. He also performed a half Angie in 4:13 at the end of the cycle and Murph in 31:50 with chest to bar pull ups. Discreet strength gains can be made while CrossFitting. Oh and he gained 10 pounds. My point isn't to dissuade someone from pursuing powerlifting if that is their goal my point is to show people that want to make strength gains for CrossFit that it can be done within the parameters of CrossFit.
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:28 AM   #16
Jerry Mobbs
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Heres my own personal experience of SS and CFSB. You results may vary of course.

CF since April 06, did a SS cycle for 4 months back in 07/08. Had really good results when I could stick with the program to the letter (no surprises there), but I found that SS really wore me out and my metcon suffered. Throw in work, family and travel and its hard to keep on track with the program. I just wish I found it when i was 20!

Been on CFSB since Nov 08 and I have found gains in strength, metcon and most importantly, it seems to be very tolerant of missed days (I once had to stop for 3 weeks due to travel etc).

If you've been crossfitting for a while and want to get your strength up and improve metcon times then CFSB gets my vote. In my case its been a resounding success.
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:20 AM   #17
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Very cool, Jeff.

If time is ever an issue, SS just won't do and CFSB could be done in half to two thirds of the time. Doing SS is just tough to do in an hour.
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:48 AM   #18
Jagtar Mukhtar
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

This sounds very interesting. Where can i learn more about this 'Crossfit Strength Bias'? Can someone please outline how it works and a rough sketch of diet/routine that goes into play?
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:59 AM   #19
Sam Ser
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

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Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
Ryan,
I work for Rip occasionally. In fact he will be at Brand X this week. I don't have a beef with Rip or his beliefs. I can say that I took a guy 155# guy with a 175# back squat and a 275# deadlift to a 275# back squat and a 315# deadlift in 8 weeks. He also performed a half Angie in 4:13 at the end of the cycle and Murph in 31:50 with chest to bar pull ups. Discreet strength gains can be made while CrossFitting. Oh and he gained 10 pounds. My point isn't to dissuade someone from pursuing powerlifting if that is their goal my point is to show people that want to make strength gains for CrossFit that it can be done within the parameters of CrossFit.

jeff, i have a lot of respect for what you have done throughout. everyone owes you a lot, in my opinion. and this strength bias stuff is going to be great for a lot of people.

but one thing you just can't get around is the admission that mainpage WODs -- BY THEMSELVES -- are apparently not enough to help everyone make the kind of apatations that you're talking about. i mean, if you and people you train with are looking for a different way, and you're telling people how to do it, then that must be the conclusion, right?

CF has said for years, "we don't adapt our workouts, we scale them." well, you have just done what a lot of people in this forum are doing: adapting your workouts.

i think that's totally cool, by the way. and i don't think it really is "un-crossfit," in the sense that you're still working at high intensity with compound movements and shooting for efficiency in a broad range of tasks.

i just think that there's a mainpage WOD that is really good for lots and lots of people, but everyone will decide (or try to figure out) how to adapt their training a little more specifically to get the result they want -- whether that means longer runs with cf endurance, or more strength work, either with CFSB or with a strength program like SS.

same thing is happening with "zoning" -- not everyone follows a rigid 30/40/30, yet they still consider themselves "on the zone." some people eat "mostly paleo."

so, there is a lot of adaptation going, some deviation around the "norm" of mainpage WOD and strict zone. the only real question is at what point your adaptation ceases to be crossfit and becomes something different.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:34 AM   #20
Jerry Mobbs
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Re: CrossFit Strength Bias

Sam,

The answer to your last paragraph is probably going to be along the lines of " when it ceases to increase work capacity across broad.... etc"
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