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Old 03-08-2006, 02:56 PM   #11
Nikki Young
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I also agree that diet it to blame. Like Dr.G said, certain foods can be the blame, yet the person doesn't know that in their bodies, the milk (for instance) that they are consuming is playing havock on their skin. But they will still think they are eating healthy.. lots of fruits and veggies and hardly any processed foods like rice and pasta.

I know of a girl who had pretty bad acne and dry skin, after about 3 weeks of changing her diet to consume more fruits and veggies, her acne noticably started to clear up.

A lot of dermatologists will put patients with skin problems/acne on a high dosage of Vitamin A. Not only is this extremely bad for your body, as too much vitamin A is toxic, but rarely will it create a long term affect of clear skin (as dosages of high vitamin A are only for a period of time, not lifetime).

So seeing as vitamin A is found in fruits and veggies.. wouldnt an option be to increase the intake of fresh broccoli, kale, red pepper, rockmelon and spinach? All being extremely high in vitamin A. Not only will the vitamin A be absorbed better in the body than that of synthetic vitamin A (being an isolated vitamin), but it's a much healthier option and won't leave you with side effects.
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Old 03-08-2006, 03:21 PM   #12
Garrett Smith
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Bryan,
I make an effort not to demonize allopathic medicine as a whole. It has its place, a much smaller place in everyday medicine and chronic disease than it currently has, IMO.

Several years ago, I had an ear infection and was supposed to fly in 3 days. I did not hesitate to visit an EENT and get a script for antibiotics. That was combined with other nutritional/topical supplements that I knew about, along with proper post-antibiotic probiotic therapy. Many MDs don't follow antibiotics with probiotics or tell them to eat sugar-laden store yogurt that likely has little more than a sprinkling of probiotics put in it (after thorough pasteurization, of course). That won't work. The patient may get better short term, they will definitely be worse long-term.

I recently had a patient who was seeing the "top" (cough, cough) MD cardiologist in town. He helped design the new artificial heart, supposedly. He put my patient on 5 mg Lipitor/day for its "anti-inflammatory" effects :crazy:. He also told my patient that taking CoQ10 was a waste of his money. I don't make up the endocrinology nor the method of action of statins, who is demonizing who?

Nature AND nurture play huge roles in ours and our children's diets and their reactions to said diets. We pass them our genes ("nature"), we pass them our food choice/prep habits and eating issues/disorders ("nurture", ie. rewarding children with sugary treats creates an emotional connection with sugar, success, and good feelings). We therefore can only logically expect them to mostly manifest the same nutritional dis-eases we as parents would have.

Considering the massive media blitzes performed on the public every day on behalf of allopathic practitioners and pharmaceutical companies, how then would an entire industry gain a "bad reputation" and be "demonized" if their practices and results didn't often earn these things?

There are plenty of bad alternative physicians out there as well, don't think I judge unfairly. There is quite an influx of money from supplement companies into my industry, making it more similar to the Big Pharma practice everyday. It's all very sad, many practitioners in my field, while being educated on things like diet, become lazy as well in terms of explaining things that may help the patient.

All I can do is my best to rise above the mess we as mankind have created for ourselves.
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Old 03-08-2006, 03:30 PM   #13
Robert Wolf
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When you are writing a scientific paper everything needs to be speculation and maybe's. Proof scientificaly is very hard to come by.

As Cordain mentions in the article and others have noted related to sebacious gland activity, hyper keratosis and abnormal baterial activity ( all of which lead to the clinical manifistations of Acne Vulgaricus) you simply do not see acne in HG groups. With the adoption of agriculture you see some with the adoption of modern refined foods you see much more.

Some people no matter how bad their nutrition is will never develop acne, this is where genetic variation comes in. This is why hyperinsulinism is called Syndrom X. You can clinically define high levels of insulin but in person A this manifests as overt obesity. In person B they display no obesity but have uterine fibroids and depression. Same casuative factor but different manifestations.

Remove insulin spiking foods from the diet and I guarante the acne will go away. I'll desigen the diet, you have whomever you like actually follow it for a month and I'll bet you $100 they are acne free at the end of the month.

I'll also guarantee you that compliance will be a monster and wresting every last insulin spiking food from the person will be very hard. Thats why its acutane, tetracycline and retin-a instead of "meats and veggies, nuts and seeds..."
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Old 03-08-2006, 05:13 PM   #14
Ross Hunt
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Robb,

I absolutely agree that facial acne is an index of insulin spike in diet. What do you think about non-facial acne, though? For instance, steroid users experience "backne," and it seems to me that what little acne I have (again, on the back around the shoulders) is proportional to my ZMA intake. (I DO still eat cottage cheese, but that is absolutely the only non-Paleo food in my diet now).
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Old 03-08-2006, 05:17 PM   #15
Steve Liberati
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I have never in my life meet a group of people this loyal to a particular diet. Coach G. truly has a cult following here. If Coach told people to drink poisoned kool-aid, I really believe some
of you guys would comply with no hesitation.

Of course I'm being facetious here, but it seems like whenever anything is suggested outside of the paleo/zone/crossfit parameters, most people have a cow.

or...whenever someone asks for advice pertaining to their diet or training, the only solution accepted in the thread is zone/paleo/crossfit recommendation.

Now, I'm as big of a believer in Crossfit as the next person, but can we please (at least try) our best to keep things in perspective and just try to consider other suggestions that are outside of Crossfit worldview.

Yes diet may in fact account for up to 85% of a person's health and body composition...BUT it is by no means the answer to everything.

Why do some people think it is?


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Old 03-08-2006, 07:03 PM   #16
Robert Wolf
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Steve-

We are folks who do not get out much and make up for our forlorn existence by building personas on this message board that are bigger than life. I'm actually an accountant living in Ohio and I've made all this crap up.

That or folks around here recommend what they think is "best" based off personal experience, coaching and interpretation of not actual generation of the scientific data.

No offense but when I hear a person crying foul about paleo/zone nutrition the person inevitably has a Twinkie addiction and is looking for some way to justify their habit.

I just have to point out that Loren Cordain has a PhD in exercise phys. He has published papers on:
Rheumatoid arthritis, acne, auto immunity, near sighted ness and cancer to name a few topics and not in back water research journal. They are published in Acta Dermatology, Ophthalmology, British Journal of medicine, British journal of nutrition. This is UNHEARD of in science. He publishes at the top of the field in subjects he has NO specialization in. This is like a molecular biologist contributing something to solid-state physics. It’s not likely to happen. Do you know how he does this? In his words "When you know the answer it is easy to retro engineer the question".

Virtually no one else is even on the same planet with this guy. Nutritional Sciences forgot they are a science and they are mucking around with a false reductionism that doesn’t produce any answers because they lack a theoretical framework from which to view it. Sorry if this makes me a Zealot but I am certainly all ears if you have a better suggestion.
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:06 PM   #17
Robert Wolf
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Ross-

I'm not sure. I'll do some digging on that.
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:49 PM   #18
Steve Shafley
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Ross,

Back when I actually trained at real gyms, instead of in my basement, I was exposed to a few scientific, smart, hardcore anabolics users. They maintained that the acne caused by anabolic steroid use was caused by the increased estrogen via aromatization of the injectible testosterones they used. They experimented on themselves, and they claimed that when they used an anti-aromatase, like Arimidex (anastrazole), they experienced a much smaller amount of acne than when they didn't.

Also, I've read in numerous places that megadosing pantothenic acid helps with acne.

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Old 03-08-2006, 07:51 PM   #19
Steve Liberati
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Robert -

I see what you are saying. However, I tend to listen more to guys who not only talk the talk, but walk the walk when it comes to dispensing nutrition advice.

Personally, I'd rather take nutrition advice from the guy in the second pic than the guy in the first pic who probably never stepped foot in a gym in his life.

Of course, there has to be a balance between health and fitness. Just b/c Ronnie Coleman is the most muscular guy in the world, does not mean I'd follow his eating habits and workout program.

That is why, I think there is nothing wrong with accepting different schools of thought from more than one nutrition and fitness "expert."

I think some people really sell themselves short by accepting only one "theory" and discarding the rest.

BTW, I scoured the entire net for a full-body pic of Dr. Loren Cordain but could not find one for the life of me.

And he is an acclaimed nutritionist on improving health, body comp, and athletic performance?

Kinda makes you wonder...


http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/21211.jpg

http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/23/21212.jpg

(Message edited by steve_liberati on March 08, 2006)
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Old 03-08-2006, 09:05 PM   #20
Garrett Smith
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Steve,
Nutrition is the first part that should be dealt with in nearly any chronic dis-ease and especially in sports performance.

It may not be all of the answer, it's usually more than the majority of the problem, and it will *always* improve whatever problem the person has to some extent. Those who don't believe it are often those people looking to multiple nutrition "experts" to justify each little item in their diet that they want to keep (ie. whey protein, potatoes, oats).

We discuss multiple nutrition approaches on this board. The Zone/Paleo idea combines multiple approaches into something approachable for newbies and better than either one alone--those more advanced and experienced can then tweak it further.

I'd personally rather see an informed rebuttal of Cordain's acne paper within this thread than a blanket critique of the forum's nutritional leanings. If you like the T-Nation dietary advice (from the picture you posted), I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love to discuss diet with you there.

Bodybuilding is not about health. If you want bodybuilding nutrition, there are obviously better places to go.

I'm torn as to whether or not to post a recent physique picture of myself on my own website, to demonstrate that I do "walk the walk" and the results that my self-discipline and consistency have led to. Some people feel a need to see something like that. Others perceive it as vain and arrogant.

Would it be acceptable for you to see pictures of multiple CF board members and their results on the Paleo/Zone, or would you only be satisfied with Cordain's picture? Although, come to think of it, this isn't the type of board that tends to entertain things like that, as most of us have moved past the "exercise for the male beauty pageant" idea and don't need to validate our bodies to others to feel better.

Yes, we can all benefit from a slight bit of individualization in our dietary choices. That being said, the basic (*healthiest*) default diet of humans doesn't vary that much and more likely than not falls right along Paleo lines.

If you have not followed the Paleo/Zone combo yet, strictly, for a period of time greater than 2 months, I would judge that your critique of it here is underinformed. If you have, then critique on, maybe in a new thread (this advice coming from a habitual thread stealer).
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