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Old 04-06-2011, 09:54 PM   #21
Milton West
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

40 reps is completely doable for the Firebreathers. The guy that did the WOD with me today completed 34 reps with rest between.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:23 AM   #22
adam adkins
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Meconiates View Post
Can I scale the workout to Power Cleans & Jerks?
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Originally Posted by Shane Jensen View Post
According to the standards video if you power clean the weight you have to descend into a front squat (hip crease below the knee) before you jerk the weight overhead.
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Originally Posted by Jay Rhodes View Post
I'd love that!!
I hit a 4:18 Grace @185# a little while back....much different with squat cleans though! :stir:

Here is what I have never been able to understand about crossfit; why are they such sticklers on the squat clean - which isn't actually a real thing - but not sticklers on the jerk - which is actually a real thing.

Watching the video that Pat posted there is no question each "squat clean" is received below parallel to meet the made up criteria. People here joke about how much easier a power clean would be but that is because they have the power to receive the bar that high. If the weight requirement is near the person's 1RM they would certainly be unable to receive the bar that high for long. If you can receive the bar that high for the entire 5 minutes, aren't you doing "more work, faster"?

On the same note, Pat clearly presses out virtually every rep in the video. That's not a jerk. By definition it is not a jerk. Most were push presses but some were closer to just regular old presses. But nobody cares. As I alluded to above, had pat received the bar to high on the clean you can bet he would be called to the carpet. But he didn't do one jerk and nobody cares.

If the idea is that he was strong enough that he didn't have to jerk the weight and therefore was doing "more work, faster" why is the same not true for the clean?
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:38 AM   #23
Nalin Prabhu
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

Because its a lot easier to judge the squat to ensure ROM than it is to distinguish the jerk vs. a pressout I guess.
Plus a squat clean is more work than a power clean of the same weight because the body weight moves an additional distance.
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Old 04-07-2011, 06:43 AM   #24
Mauricio Leal
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

Flexibility, balance and coordination. Squatting brings out the goat in a lot of otherwise strong peoples' game. Pressing out gives the posterior chain a break, which is already working double duty (but it's debatable, sure).
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:00 AM   #25
Eric Montgomery
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

After seeing some of the pushups and box jumps that were counted as good reps in last week's video, do you really have much confidence in your average CFer's ability to judge a good vs. bad jerk by strict Oly standards? That would be near impossible, especially when they're being done at high speed. I get the more work/faster argument, but requiring squat cleans will really separate the strong people from the not so strong people and produce a greater variation in scores, I think.
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:28 AM   #26
adam adkins
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
After seeing some of the pushups and box jumps that were counted as good reps in last week's video, do you really have much confidence in your average CFer's ability to judge a good vs. bad jerk by strict Oly standards? That would be near impossible, especially when they're being done at high speed. I get the more work/faster argument, but requiring squat cleans will really separate the strong people from the not so strong people and produce a greater variation in scores, I think.
First, cleaning 75kg has virtually nothing to do with strength. Doing it continuously for 5 minutes is muscle endurance but don't confuse this as separating the "strong people."

Secondly, you are 100% right. I don't trust the average judge to judge a jerk. But my point - convoluted though it may be - is that they shouldn't have to judge (and clearly the didn't). They shouldn't have to judge the clean either. The only movement which should be used in a competition like this is ground to overhead.

You shouldn't make up a movement like a "squat clean", which again is not a real thing, and you certainly should call something one thing - the jerk - and clearly not hold anyone to any standard that even remotely resembles that movement.

"Let's see who can pick this bar up and put it over your head as many times as possible in the next five minutes." That way those with outrageous strength can do it one way, those with great muscular endurance can do it one way, and those with some combination thereof can do it how ever they want. That is the competition. That is how you would see who is more fit.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:20 AM   #27
Aushion Chatman
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

Strength is relative...we all start somewhere, and I know Eric meant it as relative, not that someone cleaning 75kg would be considered strong in most circles...although in a few they probably would.

Adam you have some good points about calling it a Jerk, and I know most of the weightlifting crowd would wonder what a squat clean is. But in crossfit this is well known and used nomenclature...Everyone SHOULD be held to the same standard, it's easy to judge and it will cause a breakout in the standings...For the purpose this serves, it's not that big of a deal.

And seems like a not so major issue to harp on. Now the Games website...
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:21 AM   #28
Geoff Archibald
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
First, cleaning 75kg has virtually nothing to do with strength. Doing it continuously for 5 minutes is muscle endurance but don't confuse this as separating the "strong people."

Secondly, you are 100% right. I don't trust the average judge to judge a jerk. But my point - convoluted though it may be - is that they shouldn't have to judge (and clearly the didn't). They shouldn't have to judge the clean either. The only movement which should be used in a competition like this is ground to overhead.

You shouldn't make up a movement like a "squat clean", which again is not a real thing, and you certainly should call something one thing - the jerk - and clearly not hold anyone to any standard that even remotely resembles that movement.

"Let's see who can pick this bar up and put it over your head as many times as possible in the next five minutes." That way those with outrageous strength can do it one way, those with great muscular endurance can do it one way, and those with some combination thereof can do it how ever they want. That is the competition. That is how you would see who is more fit.
So what if they made up a maneuver. The thruster isn't an olympic lift. Why do you have to squat for a wall ball? Why not just say throw this ball to hit the 10ft target in any way?

As far as I'm concerned, they want to see a clean, they want to see a front squat and they want the bar to get overhead. The clean and the front squat can be combined if you want. It's really not that complicated. Sure they're bastardizing words that are well defined in olympic lifting but it is what it is.

It's pretty clear what they want from the descriptions so you're really just getting hung up on semantics.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:46 AM   #29
adam adkins
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Geoff Archibald View Post
So what if they made up a maneuver. The thruster isn't an olympic lift. Why do you have to squat for a wall ball? Why not just say throw this ball to hit the 10ft target in any way?

As far as I'm concerned, they want to see a clean, they want to see a front squat and they want the bar to get overhead. The clean and the front squat can be combined if you want. It's really not that complicated. Sure they're bastardizing words that are well defined in olympic lifting but it is what it is.

It's pretty clear what they want from the descriptions so you're really just getting hung up on semantics.
You are missing the point. I am not getting "hung up on semantics" and am saying that the true competition is to test the result with little concern for the means - minor safety concerns excepted.

As I said, some will have to "squat clean" the weight. Some will do a westside style stiff-leg clean. Both are fine. Some will have to jerk it, some will push press it and others will do some combination. All is fine.

If person A can get the weight overhead 50 times and person B 40 times, Person A is more fit for the task no matter the means.

The semantics argument I presented was that I couldn't understand why crossfit requires strict compliance to a move that is broadly defined -the clean - and loose compliance with a term that is specifically defined - the jerk. To me, the better result is strict compliance only with the result- the bar being overhead. Anything else only adds confusing and arbitrary judgment to the ultimate goal of find "the most fit."
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:49 AM   #30
Nalin Prabhu
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Re: Crossfit Games 11.3 - Squat clean/jerk

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Originally Posted by Geoff Archibald View Post
It's pretty clear what they want from the descriptions so you're really just getting hung up on semantics.

^^ Agreed!
No matter what the movement was called and how it was defined.. there would be somebody arguing it wasn't right.
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