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Old 05-30-2007, 06:20 PM   #21
Barry Cooper
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Perhaps this might clarify things: is MMA a system teaching people how to kill other people efficently without gloves on? That's what is taught soldiers, or should be taught to soldiers.

There's a technique one of the guys on this board told me about (I knew about it, but loved the name): "monkey grabs forbidden fruit". Guess what that is. Is it allowed in MMA? Given the protective gear, it wouldn't work anyway, but that says something too. I don't wear protective gear to work.

MMA is about strategy and conditioning. A fair amount of speed, power, aggression and allowable technique are needed too. Yet, "monkey grabs forbidden fruit" really doesn't need most of that, just strong hands.

And keep in mind, too, in a self defense situation, what the law really wants you to do is get out of there, not stand there for 5 minutes boxing, then wrestling.

One of my many dreams is some day to open my own gym, and offer martial arts classes which I am explicitly going to set up as experimental. I have a number of ideas for things I haven't seen done anywhere.

I am going to require all of my students to get their CCP's, even if they don't have guns, because I want them to understand the seriousness of fighting, and I want them to understand that martial arts is, in my own opinion, more about the feeling of safety, than the reality of safety, which is best achieved through caution and weapons.
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Old 05-30-2007, 11:53 PM   #22
Laura Rucker
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Krav Maga principles:
Identify the Threat
Remove the Threat
Counter attack

The KM technique is what is used to remove the threat. Once the threat (gun, choking, grabbing, knife whatever) is removed, "it's just a fight." You get away or you detain the bad guy for LE.

No need for gun or knife defense in the ring. Good take down defenses and choke resistance is useful in the ring and the street.

I only know of a couple of chokes that are used in the octagon: rear naked, guillotine. I'm guessing choking someone with your hands is out because I've never seen it done, so the two handed pluck and the one handed pluck or out as defenses.

Counter attacks in KM classes come from some of the same sources as MMA fight training: Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, whatever works to incapacitate your opponent, just as stated above, there are boundaries in the ring that just don't apply in the street when you are defending yourself or your family.

I would agree though that KM training reinforces an attitude and posture that would serve well in the ring: Be aggressive. Be explosive. Don't back up. Don't quit.

I'm sure ALL of this is said above. :-) I just like this topic.
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:10 AM   #23
Tom Brose
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I see both sides of this a bit. Obviously if someone was going to into an MMA match, they would be best suited to train for that specific encounter. I think a good analogy is ....CrossFit. When coach Burgner is getting an athlete ready for a comp, they aren,t just doing the WOD. they prep for a very specific need.

In a best case, Krav is like CrossFit, training for the unknown, and the unknowable. I think where the issue gets clouded is by the discrepancy in abilities of the Krav practitioners and instructors. Now one of my good friends just got his Black Belt, and is a very good fighter. on the other hand, I have met some instructors who were not so great. That happens in every system, but there do seem to be a bunch of folks who have bought into the Krav hype, and will be quick to tell you how deadly there moves are, when they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. I have dealt a lot with the same issue in Chinese martial arts, which I studied for years.
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Old 05-31-2007, 07:29 AM   #24
Beau Bryant
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Just ask yourself a question.
If things go desperately wrong, and initial reaction does not succeed, is my system the best system to get me out of this situation?

If you are a Krav guy/gal and things go wrong and you find yourslef on the ground in a bad situation is your system the best for getting you out of that situation? My personal opinion is no. If you challenge that, do some research find and MMA/BJJ Purple or brown belt in your area and do the research yourself. I'm open to being wrong. They should have no problem starting with you in a dominate position, allowing you to throw elbows, knees, head butts and anything else and quickly dominating you. Same goes if you love your BJJ, while most fights may go to a clinch or the ground at some point, most if not all started standing up.

In either case, if you think you have it figured out and you do not crosstrain, you are sorely mistaken.

Talking about who is better at sport and who is better on the street is a pointless argument. Put either of these disciplins in the ring or on the street and the guy thats successful will more than likely not be using just one or the other.
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Old 05-31-2007, 07:34 AM   #25
Barry Cooper
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I have to be honest. I have trained in martial arts for years, and have never yet found a dojo that made total sense to me. Everywhere I've gone, I've seen multiple things that didn't make sense, at least to me. Almost all of them develop coordination, agility, balance, some measure of strength, fortitude, and discipline. Almost all of them likely increase one's ability to defend oneself against one or a couple people in an unarmed situation, although likely not to the extent the practioners think. This makes many martial arts practioners, in my own highly subjective, biassed opinion, slightly less safe since they think they are better than they are. Knowing a couple of "great" techniques doesn't mean the next guy doesn't know something you never thought of.

Over the years, I've gathered a lot of data points, and believe that upon a basis of existing systems, I can build something that's not bad, and that makes sense to me. I want to include a spiritual aspect as well, which is often given lip service, but not really understood. I don't think very many people understand how martial arts can be spiritual, and what that might look or feel like. And especially how something effective can be combined with something socially useful.

My plan is to start people with black belts, and every promotion they move up one color, ending with White. If they just want a black belt, why that's easily earned. Here, I'll include it with your uniform.

My promtional certificates will read: 1) No longer fully stinks; 2) Stinks less; 3) Stinks much less; 4) Mostly doesn't stink; 5) largely competent on good days. That will be the white belt promotion. That's probably enough grades.

This may not be the best marketing approach, but I'm half serious. I would want people who understand the logic (and humor) of that. It's like the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Calvin is going to write a self help book called: "Quit whining: how to get over your addiction to self help books", then realizes maybe he can't write a sequel.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:10 AM   #26
Laura Rucker
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Ha! Barry that is funny in a scary sense because so accurate.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:35 AM   #27
Rick West
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Escrima is a perfect example of this discussion.
Here is Stockton, Ca we used to be known as Lil Manila. A few years ago the last of our local Grand Masters died.
For many years Angel Cabalas, Gilbert Tenio and Leo Giron taught the real combat moves from the past. All of therse men had survived the war and had no hesitation "big advantage" when called upon. I doubt that they every fought in tourneyments "saw some demos" and didn't feel the need to. They each had their own styles.Spending a few hours w/GM Tenio one evening was a treat. I found out that he was also a 6th Dan Kempo and 4th Dan Jujutsu. He also trained under 17 different masters back in the Islands.
In his dojo was "All challenges are greatufully accepted"sign. Any questons could be regarded as a challenge if posed incorrectly.
It seemed natural to add anything useful while disregarding the unneeded.
Remember this is where Danny Insanto came from.
He does a yearly seminar and this year I'd like to make it. JMHO

Ricisan
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:39 AM   #28
Skip Chase
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Beau
"If you are a Krav guy/gal and things go wrong and you find yourself on the ground in a bad situation is your system the best for getting you out of that situation? My personal opinion is no."

Under specific circumstances, I have to disagree. I am not a Krav Maga guy. I am a Commando Krav Maga guy. I have also spent nearly 30 years training with the Isshinryu system. Both of the arts have taught me to avoid confrontation, and only to be used to defend my life and protect loved ones. Period.

In spite of the fact the founder of CKM, Moni Aizik, began training in Judo, jujitsu and karate at the age of 8, and was a 7 times Israeli national champion, when it comes to ground fighting, he teaches us a '5 second rule'. We do not want to go to the ground. It is very dangerous, and our attacker may have a knife or other weapon. They may be an experienced grappler. We want to engage, inflict damage and escape. We do not want to be on the ground longer than 5 seconds.

Under the specific circumstances of being attacked on the street, and the attacker takes us to the ground, should the attacker have years of grappling experience, he is still vulnerable and regardless of position or dominance, unable to prevent and recover from an eye gouge.

Barry- good posts!! I was always of the belief that kara-te was 'the way' of defending oneself on the street. It has only been during the past year I've changed my mind. Most of our students, after years of training are unable to defend themselves from a street attack. I agree with you, a lot of it does not make sense. Isshinryu did not teach me how to defend myself, should an attacker place a gun to my head.

I lkie your ideas.

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Old 05-31-2007, 01:10 PM   #29
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Krav Maga teaches groundfighting also, it's not Karate.
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Old 05-31-2007, 03:14 PM   #30
Skip Chase
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Jason, I don't understand your comment.

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