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Old 03-28-2005, 11:51 AM   #21
Tanner Kolb
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Location: Petoskey  MI
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if it was easy everyone would be doing it. if everyone else is doing it, it usually isnt for me. im with you laura and larry.
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Old 03-28-2005, 11:51 AM   #22
bill fox
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Dave Werner wrote at DD

"Your score on Cindy was VERY good, but to think that the workout was making you sick many hours later is nonsense. You are too smart for that. No 20 minute workout is going to make you sick for 8 or 9 hours. What happened did not teach you a lesson about training at all. If anything was learned (IF) it was about pushing and pushing when you are sick. Blaming Crossfit is beneath you."

Coach wrote

"Bill Fox got messed up. He’s proud of 23 rounds, but it’s not very good for someone who publicly speaks of their own fitness in glowing terms."


"Let’s get this straight, everyone, being nauseous in waves for 8 hours is not an uncommon experience for overreaching novices."

So from 2 of the top CF officials I get "your score was VERY good" and "it's not very good..."


From Dave I get "No 20 minute workout is going to make you sick for 8 or 9 hours." and from Coach "being nauseous in waves for 8 hours is not an uncommon experience for overreaching novices."

I do this only to point out the pathetic lameness of internet out of context cross posting.

Prior to either of these attacks I wrote "I was sick the whole week before the DL/PU comp. Worked out the Monday before, then did nothing till I pulled a few DLs the day before. Worked out after the comp, Sunday and then the bad night."

Part of the original quote cited above was "This is not a knock on Crossfit. Too many super fit folks there imply it doesn't work. "

Coach, so smug. The fact is I do have 25 years of training experience and have trained with lot's of world class athletes. I've done dozens, if not hundreds, of workouts as hard as the one I did that night. Triathlon bricks, Kyokushin sparing, BJJ sparring round after round, Concept 2 indoor regattas, H.I.T., circuits w/ Maxwell and on and on.

I loved the workout and was very psyched afterward. I felt fine till hours later when I got sick. All that was reported here. I can't remember feeling that bad for that long. I know my body, my recovery abilty and how I get sick pretty well. There is no doubt that the intensity of the workout, which BTW was "paced" and was not a fall on the ground after effort, more like a hold onto the bottom of the shorts for a minute or two, allowed whatever, to "get me" far worse then had I done the type of workout I usually do. If one is paying attention then one learns from about training from experiences like that.

Coach, you and I both know that 23+ rounds from a 45 year old guy that doesn't do CF type training, although not in CF stud catagory, shows a very high level of basic fitness - infact you were the only one that felt the need to state otherwise in order to imply I'm a poser, since obviously no "real" athlete could question the protocol.

I have a ton of respect for many of the athletes that post here. Anyone that can do 30 rounds of Cindy or 40 pullups any which way is "doing their homework" as I like to say.

That's all I got to say on it.

Train hard


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Old 03-28-2005, 12:57 PM   #23
Founding Father Coach is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 391

You wrote, “I do this only to point out the pathetic lameness of internet out of context cross posting” and while I can’t quite figure out what that means I can tell that you are distressed that Dave and I have different opinions. Having individual opinions is a regular feature of our community. We see it as a plus not “lame”. It takes getting used to, but it’s a pretty good feature in a community.

(My take is that Dave is wrong about the sickness. I told him so yesterday in person.)

On the subject of your fitness I think Dave and I agree. Your score is good given your background and age, but then again so is everyone’s.

Your claim that I point this out to imply that you are “a poser since obviously no “real” athlete could question the protocol” is wide of the mark and the truth.

Finally, while you might respect “many of the athletes who post here” I respect all of them and you. I can do that without being impressed by your performance or training background, however.

I want to invite you to Santa Cruz Arpil 15th, 16th, and 17th for our seminar as my guest (no fee). You will be treated respectfully, in fact, like family, as we have all members of the kettlebell family (Cotter, Martone, etc.).
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Old 03-28-2005, 01:45 PM   #24
bill fox
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Posts: 587

First, I would love, and I mean love, to take advantage of that offer but I'll be at Pavel's kettlebell certification in St. Paul those exact days, (gee St. Paul or Santa Cruz...)if it's good for the next one, I'll be there. As Dan John has said, never miss an oppurtunity to learn from a master, and I know you get alot of them there.

What I meant by "cross posting lameness" is I went out of my way, more then once, during the course of the threads on DD, to point out that this was not a knock on CF, I called what happened "a perfect storm".

"I have no doubt it was a "perfect storm" type of deal, already run down, absolute killer workout and bad/undercooked fish."

To young Tyler's comment I said

"Again - I'm ONLY saying I had a bad experience, not that Crossfit is bad.... I KNOW some of it was related to eating too soon after such a hard session, but some of it wasn't. It takes lots of years and perspective to know when something just doesn't feel right to you."

And so on....

Of course any great site allows for and encourages intelligent discussions of differing opinions, I was trying to point out that by posting things out of context you can signifcantly alter the tone of someone's statements.

My take was that that kind of workout, if you're not careful, which I wasn't, can make you vulnerable to the type of thing that happenened. I shared my experience. Will I never do another circuit made up of functional drills - of course I will.

I didn't ask for you to be "impressed". Maybe it's me, but I'm having trouble seeing the respect in this one

"Bill Fox got messed up. He’s proud of 23 rounds, but it’s not very good for someone who publicly speaks of their own fitness in glowing terms. My girls do a lot better and don’t speak as highly of themselves. Kelly, Bill, is an attorney – don’t judge him by his words."

If I speak highly of myself, which is something ishoukld watch regardless, it's usually in the context of something I learned from one of the athletes I've had the oppurtunity to train with. If I give advice, I try to put it in context of where it came from. I also do the the comps and try to not "write checks I can't cash".

Again, I'll be hanging with the afore mentioned Cotter and Martone the weekend of the seminar so I can't take advantage of your very generous offer, I appretiate it non the less.

Hopefully were a little closer to understaning each other despite the limitations of internet communication.


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Old 03-28-2005, 02:04 PM   #25
Founding Father Coach is offline
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 391

The invitation stands. When you are able to make it out, I would love to have you around. You'll find us/me generally much less disputatious live than digital. We're scheduling events every other month. I have no doubts that we will be able to learn from each other. None at all.

Say "Hi!" to Jeff, Steve, and Pavel and please take the banter, prodding, and poking as nothing but awkward enticement to communing, building, and sharing.

In friendship,


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Old 03-28-2005, 02:18 PM   #26
bill fox
Departed bill fox is offline
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Posts: 587

I will consider myself "awkwardly enticed" and watch for an event I can get to. Thanks.

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Old 03-28-2005, 06:47 PM   #27
Barry Cooper
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I've thought about this, and I think the best analogy is to think of CrossFit as Bacardi 151, and most WOD's as Pat O'Brians Hurricanes. I know something about both. The thing is, you can drink 2-3 Hurricanes and be fine. You don't taste the alcohol, although intellectually you know you've consumed. However, wait an hour or two, and BAM, you know something just hit.

The WOD's do that sometimes. You do them. You're done, and then all of a sudden you get night sweats, if you've done it in the evening. You get exhausted all of a sudden and feel this need to just go to bed. Sometimes I literally do a shot and a cigarette after the WOD (hell, it's Kentucky , folks; you don't have to drive far to find mullets), because it calms my shaky nerves.

Reading that, some folks may think I'm nuts (but probably not most of the people that are likely to be reading this, when I think about it.) However, I simply view CrossFit as strong medicine. Nothing more or less. The Fisherman's Friend of fitness.

For folks who like this sort of thing, it's very likable.
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Old 03-28-2005, 07:15 PM   #28
Don Stevenson
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A shot and a cigarette after a WOD, HOLY S#$T are you kidding me that would kill most people I know!

Remind me never to get into a drinking contest with you:uhoh:

Nice analogy about the 151, that stuff is great but definitely not after a WOD.
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Old 03-28-2005, 08:16 PM   #29
Eugene R. Allen
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Just to put Pukie visits into perspective, I belive we can reserve the title of the original post "How I almost killed myself training" for what happened to my friend Brian "Black Knight" Anderson after his very first CF workout with me. Nothing remarkable along the way save for the second set of 50 KB swings that must have been a little over the top for him. He was using up pretty much all of the air in the room (the "What do you do for cardio" question had not come up) and it was clear he was pretty much done. He told me later he was having a heck of a time getting his pants and boots on (he had to lay down on my driveway to gear up for his Harley ride home) and he called me later to tell me he was feeling OK but that his kidney's were going to sue me.

At 0300 the next morning he was in an ambulance en route the ER because he was 10/10 for pain and could do little but curl up in a ball on the floor. Agony. do not want to get this. It is frequently fatal. It is often the result of muscles getting damaged in car crashes which then release waste products that clog up the kidneys and cause all kinds of swelling and other problems. Most everyone who talked to him could not believe he had gotten rabdo through exercise or that he lived through it.

He almost died. Literally. He spent 6 days in the hospital on a morphine drip that barely touched the pain. His kidneys were over loaded, he had to get pumped full of fluids to flush out the waste products, pneumonia was a constant threat and the excess fluids created mineral imbalances that threatened his heart. The muscles of his lower back were destroyed and there was the constant threat of kidney failure.

He didn't die. He had to stay home from work for a bit (he was too weak to sit upright in a chair) but after a couple months he slowly got back into the swing of things (no pun intended) by starting swimming with me. That got all his muscles working again and strengthened his back. He got better.

He has been doing CrossFit again since January and he has lost about 15 pounds and 2 1/2 inches from around his waist. He hammers and is back to his hard core self.

Pukie's big brother Rabdo is a mean mo fo. Be happy if all you do is puke a couple times and feel a bit weak in the morning.

Coach's line "For my first exposure with the Concept II Rower I decided to blend hot 500’s with pull-ups: 3X 500/21 kind of thing. Pure CF. I wasn’t right in a big and horrible way all through the night, Bill, but in the morning I bought a rower. That’s the key." expresses the underlying beauty of CF to me "I can't do it, yet, therefore I must do it, now."

If it feels good, you're doing it wrong. I understand not wanting to be sick but the proper repair is not to abandon the protocol but rather scale the the workout to your current level of fitness and intensity tolerance. As time goes on ramp things up and work at wherever your desire for improvement and tolerance for Pukie visits intersect. The methodology is not for everyone but for those that pursue it with the abandon of the CF elite, excellence awaits.

It is that elite performance I pursue and those elite performers (Josh, Connor, Annie, Greg, Chemgirl) I wish to emulate. I'm definately in the buy a rower camp. I'm glad Brian was too.
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Old 03-28-2005, 08:40 PM   #30
Beth Moscov
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Wow. Twice wow. First for how awesome Coach and Bill have handled this. Second wow for Eugene and Coach waking me up to how intense recovery from crossfit WOD's can be. Being a wimp, I only get to the point where I am feeling sick for a few hours - never throwing up and definately not like Eugene's story. But as a trainer, it is really good to know that you can push a newbie over the edge - especially a very fit newbie who doesn't realize what these workouts can do to you.
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