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Old 09-12-2014, 02:37 AM   #11
Rob Darden
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

I am 5'11 and 195lbs. Been leaning out the last 6 weeks on these macros. Carbs are Jasmine Rice pre and PWO with veggies at night with dinner. Rest day's I just eat veggies but up my fats to hit my macros.

C - 168g - 30%
P - 224g - 40%
F - 75g - 30%

Total = 2,240 cal
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Old 09-12-2014, 11:16 AM   #12
Kerry Kubla
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

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Originally Posted by Luke Sirakos View Post
Why would you consume 900 calories of fat as a preworkout drink? I mean, I don't understand why you would eat the way you do at all but that is the most head scratching of all.
I believe that Dare is more than likely using fat for his primary energy source rather than Carbs.

It takes a while to get to this point of being fat adaptive due to 99 percent of people are using and resourcing Carbs/sugar for fuel. I would agree that if you are on a very low carb diet for a short time, while trying to cut fat, you will start to feel weak and drained of energy. However, if you have stayed on this diet long enough and starved your body of glycogen/sugar you will become Fat adaptive or Ketogenic(producing ketones). Your sustained energy level will skyrocket and you will have more than enough energy even while being fasted. If you go without eating your body will be producing Ketones to fuel your brain(a prefered energy source) and your insulin will not drop or fluctuate(this is what promotes and causes fat storage).You wil have plenty of fat stored on your body for sustained energy.

I myself take in around 250-300 grams of fat, 150-200 grams of protein, less than 50 grams of carbs, and 3000-4000 Kcal daily. My body weight is 205lbs at 5'10 and I'am 43 years old.
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Old 09-13-2014, 12:23 PM   #13
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Short answer; to fuel my workout, I usually burn 1200-1400kcal during it.

Longer one; as much as I would like to have most of my daily calories PWO I cannot as I workout from 3 to 5pm, so to do something like 3000kcal from 5pm till 9pm is impossible for me, trust me, I tried. I am talking about real quality food, not some supplements. So I had to split "the dosage".
Moderate to high-intensity exercise is fuelled primarily by carbohydrate not fat [1]. Even Dr Stephen Phinney, one of the leading proponents of low-carb diets, concedes that point [2].

1: Substrate Utilization During Exercise in Active People.
Edward F. Coyle. Am J Clin Nutr 1995;61(suppl):968S-79S.


2: Ketogenic Diets and Physical Performance.
Stephen D Phinney; doi:10.1186/1743-7075-1-2


*All links wfs*
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Old 09-13-2014, 01:52 PM   #14
Kerry Kubla
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Moderate to high-intensity exercise is fuelled primarily by carbohydrate not fat [1]. Even Dr Stephen Phinney, one of the leading proponents of low-carb diets, concedes that point [2].

1: Substrate Utilization During Exercise in Active People.
Edward F. Coyle. Am J Clin Nutr 1995;61(suppl):968S-79S.


2: Ketogenic Diets and Physical Performance.
Stephen D Phinney; doi:10.1186/1743-7075-1-2


*All links wfs*
If you read the entire article from Stephen Phinney he points out clearly that when subjects are switched to a VLCD(Ketogenic Diet) during a short 1-2 week study they do have a loss of energy and Vo2Max volume during the first week or two. Stephen also points out that Keto adaptation takes as long as 4-6 weeks to take place and these studies did not last that long. In the studies that lasted longer the test subjects were back at their beginning energy level and Vo2 volume while being at a lower body fat%. The subjects that remained on the VLCD for an extended period of 6 weeks or longer became Keto Adaptive and had no loss of performance output.These subjects also had the weight that was previously lost added to them in a backpack during their final test.

This was also backed by Lt. Frederick Schwatka from his journal and documentation. Schwatka lived with the Inuit Indians and adopted their eating habits of a high fat diet for the entire time his expedition lasted while traveling over 3000 miles on foot. Frederick Schwatka stated "When first thrown wholly upon a diet of reindeer meat, it seems inadequate to properly nourish the system, and there is an apparent weakness and inability to perform severe exertive fatiguing journeys. But this soon passes away in the course of two or three weeks."
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Old 09-13-2014, 03:25 PM   #15
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

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Originally Posted by Kerry Kubla View Post
If you read the entire article from Stephen Phinney he points out clearly that when subjects are switched to a VLCD(Ketogenic Diet) during a short 1-2 week study they do have a loss of energy and Vo2Max volume during the first week or two. Stephen also points out that Keto adaptation takes as long as 4-6 weeks to take place and these studies did not last that long. In the studies that lasted longer the test subjects were back at their beginning energy level and Vo2 volume while being at a lower body fat%. The subjects that remained on the VLCD for an extended period of 6 weeks or longer became Keto Adaptive and had no loss of performance output. These subjects also had the weight that was previously lost added to them in a backpack during their final test.
Dr Phinney states quite clearly in his conclusions that "anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics." I believe that most experts in the field of sports nutrition and performance who would agree with him on this.

''Fat adaptation'' for athletic performance: the nail in the coffin?
Louise M. Burke and Bente Kiens; J Appl Physiol 100:7-8, 2006.


(wfs)

Quote:
This was also backed by Lt. Frederick Schwatka from his journal and documentation. Schwatka lived with the Inuit Indians and adopted their eating habits of a high fat diet for the entire time his expedition lasted while traveling over 3000 miles on foot. Frederick Schwatka stated "When first thrown wholly upon a diet of reindeer meat, it seems inadequate to properly nourish the system, and there is an apparent weakness and inability to perform severe exertive fatiguing journeys. But this soon passes away in the course of two or three weeks."
I don't see how Lt. Schwatka's experience is relevant as nobody is arguing that submaximal endurance can not be maintained on a ketogenic diet. It's the fun stuff, >65% VO2 max, that suffers.
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Old 09-14-2014, 02:01 AM   #16
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

^^ Cool, Daryl. It's something I've been thinking as I had not been aware there had been any sort of studies on ketogenic diets and anaerobic sports. I came across that ultrarunner who does a ketogenic diet.

But aerobic exercise and anaerobic exercise are far different.

There was that one study with gymnasts but all of those tests would be ATP/Creatine time domains and I was interested on what actual workouts for said gymnasts would have "felt" like and performed (seeing that WLing would be somewhat similar).
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Old 09-14-2014, 05:15 AM   #17
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

Darryl, you are right that high intensity exercise requires carbs, but not as much as some people think. I am also not in ketosis as I still have ~100g carbs, but mainly as a glycogen replenishement. For example, a classic 2 sets of 10 reps at 70% 1RM of leg press only burns 5g of glycogen, yes...5 grams.

My diet is a so called "carb backloading" one. I have all my carbs post workout (I believe my body works just fine on fats alone as I am a fairly sedentary person outside the gym) and the only goal of it is to replenish glycogen which then stays almost full till next exercise. And before somebody thinks glycogen needs to be at 100% for muscles to perform at 100%, its not. Only at a very low level of muscle glycogen, 20-30%, muscle power starts to decrease.
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Old 09-14-2014, 05:30 PM   #18
Kerry Kubla
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

Blair,
Very true aerobic exercise and anarobic exercise are very different and the preferred source of energy for anarobic is fed from stored glycogen. The body can only store X amount of glycogen and that only varies slightly from person to person due to their size.You can not force your body to store more in your liver or muscles once they are to load capacity. Even subjects that have been on a fasted diet for extended weeks at a time, consuming zero carbs or calories and only water( never recommended), have been shown to still have up to 70% of their glycogen storage remaining.

However, if your body is conditioned to use fat for your primary fuel source during aerobic exercise(ketogenic) it will spare your stored glycogen for sprints or anaerobic exercise. If you are not fat adaptive your body will not switch this back and forth between burning fat and burning glycogen it will simply use stored glycogen first and you will have to continually try and keep it full by injesting more sugar if you do not keep up you will experience "bonk" or hitting the wall.

Link WFS http://vimeo.com/51891286

To the OP I would never recommend anyone that one way of eating is the right way. Try differnt things and see what works best for you then stick with it. As for Macro's and eating VLCD you will need to greatly increase your fat intake up to as much as 70 to 80% of your intake.
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Old 09-15-2014, 02:31 AM   #19
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

Cool, that would explain how my buddy gets through his HIT sessions. I would say most of his fitness is minimalist as he isn't putting in a lot of volume and that isn't his thing. A quick session of one kind of lift here, some jogging there, some martials there, a HIT session later.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:22 AM   #20
Kevin Keast
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Re: Those who use very little carbs and high fat

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Trying to get BF way down, lean out but keep adding muscle.
When you figure this out, please bottle and sell it. You'll make a fortune.
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